New Bike Break In

[Mystery16]

Lots of feedback... Knew this was a controversial issue from the outside but thought I'd get some feedback to see for myself. From what it sounds like, from all the efforts of everyone on the forum and on the interwebs, that the only real thing to stay away from during break-in is to be overly easy on the engine. Does anyone concur?

Just thought I'd throw this out there, and please don't take this as a sign that that's the end of the thread, I love seeing everyone's feedback!

By the way, I'd be interested to see if there is a connection between any certain kind of break-in cycle and any maintenance issues that arise afterwords. So my science experiment is this, as non-conclusive as the results may be - if you have had any catastrophic failures regarding engines in the time that you have owned your bike (or not!!!) throw it up here with the break-in method you subscribed to when you bought your bike, and we can see if there is any kind of correlation. Mythbusters we are not, but let's give it a shot!

 

[Spunky99]

Lots of feedback... Knew this was a controversial issue from the outside but thought I'd get some feedback to see for myself. From what it sounds like, from all the efforts of everyone on the forum and on the interwebs, that the only real thing to stay away from during break-in is to be overly easy on the engine. Does anyone concur?

Just thought I'd throw this out there, and please don't take this as a sign that that's the end of the thread, I love seeing everyone's feedback!

By the way, I'd be interested to see if there is a connection between any certain kind of break-in cycle and any maintenance issues that arise afterwords. So my science experiment is this, as non-conclusive as the results may be - if you have had any catastrophic failures regarding engines in the time that you have owned your bike (or not!!!) throw it up here with the break-in method you subscribed to when you bought your bike, and we can see if there is any kind of correlation. Mythbusters we are not, but let's give it a shot!

I think you got it 1/2 right.
I think what I see here is basically 2 sides that are very similar in agreement but diverge philosophically.
I think we all agree on 2 specific items. #1 keep the RPM under the stated max in the manual and don't keep the RPM constant for a period of time as stated in the manual.

Where we diverge is how much to baby the bike within these limits. I like to put pressure on the rings, both in acceleration and deceleration to force them into the cylinder walls so that they seat properly. Others think that gentle acceleration and deceleration is what is specified by the manual. At risk of argument, if the rings don't get seated properly, you will have a leaky oil burning loss in compression lacking power bike. The trick is to seat the rings properly and there are many viewpoints on this. So do we break in the rings at 6000 miles with a gentle break in or do we hit it hard and back off hard to seat them in about 1000 miles? We all have our opinions on what is best.

 

[motoneta123]

Now... to follow OM procedure does not mean to ride @ low rpms, it means what it says: avoid rpms over certain limits for extended periods of time. It may be true that other procedures may also work, but when its my money i choose to follow the book. The OM may be conservative...sure, or no specific on some points but i dont believe it may be so wrong, they built your bike!

 

[Spunky99]

Now... to follow OM procedure does not mean to ride @ low rpms, it means what it says: avoid rpms over certain limits for extended periods of time. It may be true that other procedures may also work, but when its my money i choose to follow the book. The OM may be conservative...sure, or no specific on some points but i dont believe it may be so wrong, they built your bike!

So what does the book say about break in other than max RPM and extended high RPM?
You indicate that you are following the OM but I find nothing in the OM to follow.

 

[motoneta123]

It's under Engine break-in, chapter 6 pages 3 and 4 next to the recommended shift points

 

[Spunky99]

It's under Engine break-in, chapter 6 pages 3 and 4 next to the recommended shift points

According to the manual pages you pointed to, breaking it in means zero decelleration using the gears. All 6 gears get dropped at 15.5 mph.....
That means the rings never get seated to the cylinder.

Have you ever ridden the bike at 15.5 mph in 6th gear? That would lug the crap outta the engine and cause valve train damage. Slamming the bike into 1st gear at 15.5 mph without matching the revs is a good way to chip teeth off the gear train.

Tossing manual into trash.......utterly useless....

 

[Mystery16]

Well hold on a sec, let's take a look at what the manual actually says.

The recommended shift points, I'm not going to disagree, are pretty useless. Although it does say that the shift points are only recommended, it does state that "if the engine is about to stall or runs very roughly, pull the clutch lever in and use the brakes to stop the motorcycle." So it doesn't intentionally state to lug the engine, just a side-effect of the ridiculous recommended shift points. And it does bring up two different points when talking about shifting into first. So bit of a contradiction of itself. In the recommended shift down points, it does not recommend shifting into first. I have been driving stick all my life, so, in my experience, unless you are coming into a situation where you are literally crawling (like coming to a stop caused by stop and go traffic) or moving uphill, it is not a good idea to shift into 1st. Like I mentioned above, there are situations that from experience may warrant the use of 1st gear, but as I said, 90% of the time, if you are moving, 2nd is best.

In the actual break-in section of the manual, it only says during the first 600 miles to "avoid prolonged operation above 5800 rpm" and that "prolonged full-throttle operation or any condition that might result in engine overheating must be avoided." Now I take from this that they do not discourage riding the engine through the gears, just keeping it from sitting at a higher rev for a longer amount of time. And when they talk about loading the engine during the break-in period, they only state to avoid "excessive" loading for the first 1000mi. IMO, I would consider excessive to be anything more than semi-aggressive street riding that would cause the aforementioned engine overheating, i.e. racing. Makes sense, manufacturer always airs on the side of caution, and this follows with many people's "ride it normally" break in approach.

 

[motoneta123]

Dear Spunky, just mention the recommended shift points as a reference for the location of B-I procedures.... not that i follow them really... as i said other b-i procedure may work, i just choose to follow the OM and it worked fine for me, so... we still love each other right?

 

[Marthy]

Just a tough here... At the end of the day it's up to you what you think it's best. I'm quite sure even if you drive off the dealer parking lot and and hammer it down to the double digits right away all the way home won't blow it up. It might effect the performance or use a bit more oil, thats it. Those engine are way over design for what we do on everyday driving. I didn't even reed the book, I just broke it in. I was able to feel the engine loosing up and then I start reving it up a little more.

It takes longer to read all the post then just get out and brake the engine.... lol

By the way, on real race car... we pull the engine out of the box, put all the fluid in, warm it up and check all the fluid levels! That's the only brake in that we do.(5 min at the most) After that, the engine is screaming 12K all day long!

 

[Spunky99]

Dear Spunky, just mention the recommended shift points as a reference for the location of B-I procedures.... not that i follow them really... as i said other b-i procedure may work, i just choose to follow the OM and it worked fine for me, so... we still love each other right?

LOL..I never lost that McLovin' feelin there Bro...
This is a good discussion and I hope no one here thinks I am taking any of this personally. We all have our own views and that is what is so good about this place. Please voice your opinions and don't worry about what others think. This is a discussion and not an argument. We all have a right to our opinions and pointing out weak points is good for the learning.

One point I think is kind of hilarious. Some of you say the manufacturer knows best and the manual has to be correct because they know best as they created the bike. Like a bible, the OM is correct and we should follow it. Not pointing any fingers at any one of you and not criticizing your opinions either. But when we look at those shift points and I think most of us kinda laughed that off as a joke, it takes away some of the credibility of the OM.
I want you all to put your bike in 6th gear at 15.5 MPH at idle and let out the clutch. Be ready to pull it back in right away unless you have a +2 on the rear sprocket or more. Lugging a new engine like that seriously isn't good for the valve train...Listen to it when you do it...bad......very bad sound. Like a death rattle and even worse when the engine has less than 1000 miles on it.

Remember....Marketing has the last edit on anything coming from a motorcycle or car manufacturer and this tends to cause some issues with the technical details. I wonder if those shift points are real or a typo?

 

[Stephenfz6r]

I think the main point for break in is the fact that there is an added suspended load of metal in the oil. Mixing it around at 6000rpm minimizes damage. At 11600RPM and beyond will throw the oil around at a much higher intensity and create potential wear points. So where do you draw the line? Flow velocity can be measured and proven therefor the specs for break-in are based on empirical data from these type of tests. I believe that break-in minimizes the risk of a high RPM failure and potential injury to the rider and of course lowers the risk of lawsuit and warranty claims for the manufacturer.:iconbeer:

 

[Spunky99]

I think the main point for break in is the fact that there is an added suspended load of metal in the oil. Mixing it around at 6000rpm minimizes damage. At 11600RPM and beyond will throw the oil around at a much higher intensity and create potential wear points. So where do you draw the line? Flow velocity can be measured and proven therefor the specs for break-in are based on empirical data from these type of tests. I believe that break-in minimizes the risk of a high RPM failure and potential injury to the rider and of course lowers the risk of lawsuit and warranty claims for the manufacturer.:iconbeer:

Good point there Stephen and one that I hadn't considered at all...
Are you suggesting somehow that the metal particulates floating in the oil somehow cause wear points by themselves based on oil pressure at different RPMs? Does an oil filter remove these particulates or minimize the problem?

As stated earlier, I changed my oil at 86 miles and there was lots of grey metal particulates in the oil filter and some in the oil too. Changing the oil and filter that early in my guestimation eliminated the above issue. Changing the oil and filter again at 300 miles removed any further issue as well as a 600 mile oil and filter change too. I have had fresh oil and a clean filter in my bike from day 1. I wonder if this theory you have as stated above is canceled by my oil/filter change frequency?

 

[Mystery16]

One point I think is kind of hilarious. Some of you say the manufacturer knows best and the manual has to be correct because they know best as they created the bike. Like a bible, the OM is correct and we should follow it. Not pointing any fingers at any one of you and not criticizing your opinions either. But when we look at those shift points and I think most of us kinda laughed that off as a joke, it takes away some of the credibility of the OM.
I want you all to put your bike in 6th gear at 15.5 MPH at idle and let out the clutch. Be ready to pull it back in right away unless you have a +2 on the rear sprocket or more. Lugging a new engine like that seriously isn't good for the valve train...Listen to it when you do it...bad......very bad sound. Like a death rattle and even worse when the engine has less than 1000 miles on it.

Remember....Marketing has the last edit on anything coming from a motorcycle or car manufacturer and this tends to cause some issues with the technical details. I wonder if those shift points are real or a typo?

+1. While a lot of the things the manufacturer says in that handbook actually has some real relevance in the real world, it seems like a lot of it is just a liability release for themselves so they can't be sued. Using their recommended shift points would mean that this bike isn't even capable of riding on the majority of public roads.

 

[Stephenfz6r]

Good point there Stephen and one that I hadn't considered at all...
Are you suggesting somehow that the metal particulates floating in the oil somehow cause wear points by themselves based on oil pressure at different RPMs? Does an oil filter remove these particulates or minimize the problem?

As stated earlier, I changed my oil at 86 miles and there was lots of grey metal particulates in the oil filter and some in the oil too. Changing the oil and filter that early in my guestimation eliminated the above issue. Changing the oil and filter again at 300 miles removed any further issue as well as a 600 mile oil and filter change too. I have had fresh oil and a clean filter in my bike from day 1. I wonder if this theory you have as stated above is canceled by my oil/filter change frequency?

Hi John, I am referring to the suspended metal in the oil causing wear points. The oil filter is supposed to trap these particles but anyone who has ever changed oil on a machine has seen the fine particles that rest on the bottom of the catch pan so obviously some of it never gets filtered or goes through the filter with out being trapped. Changing oil is a good thing but too often might be a waste of time and money. Car manufacturer's stretch out there oil change schedules and seem to have had no adverse effects. When leaded gas was around it caused a lot of clogging in oil journals and hence required that oil be changed quite frequently. Today the biggest issues with oil is carbon and acid build up which is more of a time issue than a mileage issue.

Stephen

 

[Spunky99]

Hi John, I am referring to the suspended metal in the oil causing wear points. The oil filter is supposed to trap these particles but anyone who has ever changed oil on a machine has seen the fine particles that rest on the bottom of the catch pan so obviously some of it never gets filtered or goes through the filter with out being trapped. Changing oil is a good thing but too often might be a waste of time and money. Car manufacturer's stretch out there oil change schedules and seem to have had no adverse effects. When leaded gas was around it caused a lot of clogging in oil journals and hence required that oil be changed quite frequently. Today the biggest issues with oil is carbon and acid build up which is more of a time issue than a mileage issue.

Stephen

Unless I'm missing something here, the suspended metal particles will do nothing on their own no matter what the oil pressure or RPM is if just floating around inside the engine and not in between mated surfaces. The particles will if introduced into bearings, piston rings, gears etc cause more wear between the metal surfaces than with just oil and in fact cause scratches on the mated surfaces.
That would be the oil pressure that forces the particles into the mated surface area and that could be a function of the RPM and especially prolonged RPM during break in. An oil filter is designed to remove these particles from the oil so the particles in the oil do not cause wear points that cannot be rectified on their own especially during break in when particles are more abundant in the oil mix.
Running clean fresh oil will aid in lubrication and remove the particles if changed in conjunction with an oil filter. While the periodic changing of oil and filter can be debated as to the efficacy of the change schedule, changing more often than called for in the OM cannot in any way cause a problem and in fact reduces the possibility of scratched surfaces. The particles do nothing positive for the break in and their removal only can enhance the break in.

Since I used hard acceleration and deceleration to force the piston rings into the cylinder walls with pressure from above and below, I expected to get more particles of metal in the oil than if I went easy on the engine. This accelerated break in did not comply with the OM and therefore an accelerated oil change schedule was required to compensate for the increased particle counts in the oil. At 86 miles the filter had a distinct grey metallic coating on the filter element and the oil itself was clean with a slight particle suspension of grey metallic particles. The stock oil filter did a decent job of filtering the metal particles from the oil but it was apparent that the filter was saturated and should be changed in order to allow the full flow of oil volume and to ensure none of the particles caused scratches in any mating surfaces if returned to the engine.

I used Motul 10-40 regular oil during the break in in order to allow the parts to mate to each other properly. I avoided prolonged operation at any RPM so that I did not put wear marks on the bearings that were from RPM load. I also put K&N oil filters on with each oil change to make sure the metallic particles were removed from the engine. I also changed the oil VERY HOT to make sure it all drained out completely taking any and all metallic particles with it. In fact rocking the bike side to side during the oil drain allowed me to remove another few ounces of oil that would have stayed in had I not rocked the bike. The OM says nothing about this and if not rocked or leaned side to side will allow old oil and metallic particles to remain and mix with the fresh oil.
This is one reason that I do the oil changes myself and do not trust the OM or dealers as they do not specify nor lean the bike to completely remove the old oil.

At 1000 miles, having changed the oil and filter already 3 times, the filter and oil looked very clean when I switched to full synthetic and changed the filter. Has anyone looked at their oil at 1000 to 1200 miles before switching to full synthetic? If there is still metallic particles in the old oil, perhaps the engine is not completely broken in yet and should not be given full synthetic oil yet.
I look at the oil closely to see what is going on inside my engine and to make sure I am breaking in the engine properly. Taking the bike to he dealer eliminates this scrutiny as they just drain, swap filter and refill at the designated schedule points in the OM no matter how you are riding the bike or how hard or easy you are taking it on the engine.

Sorry about the long reply but I think paying attention to the bike is more important than just following a break in schedule and recommended shift points etc. We all ride our own way and those differences could mean you need to deviate from the OM regarding scheduled maintenance as in my case.

 

[Marthy]

Unless I'm missing something here, the suspended metal particles will do nothing on their own no matter what the oil pressure or RPM is if just floating around inside the engine and not in between mated surfaces. The particles will if introduced into bearings, piston rings, gears etc cause more wear between the metal surfaces than with just oil and in fact cause scratches on the mated surfaces.
That would be the oil pressure that forces the particles into the mated surface area and that could be a function of the RPM and especially prolonged RPM during break in. An oil filter is designed to remove these particles from the oil so the particles in the oil do not cause wear points that cannot be rectified on their own especially during break in when particles are more abundant in the oil mix.
Running clean fresh oil will aid in lubrication and remove the particles if changed in conjunction with an oil filter. While the periodic changing of oil and filter can be debated as to the efficacy of the change schedule, changing more often than called for in the OM cannot in any way cause a problem and in fact reduces the possibility of scratched surfaces. The particles do nothing positive for the break in and their removal only can enhance the break in.

Since I used hard acceleration and deceleration to force the piston rings into the cylinder walls with pressure from above and below, I expected to get more particles of metal in the oil than if I went easy on the engine. This accelerated break in did not comply with the OM and therefore an accelerated oil change schedule was required to compensate for the increased particle counts in the oil. At 86 miles the filter had a distinct grey metallic coating on the filter element and the oil itself was clean with a slight particle suspension of grey metallic particles. The stock oil filter did a decent job of filtering the metal particles from the oil but it was apparent that the filter was saturated and should be changed in order to allow the full flow of oil volume and to ensure none of the particles caused scratches in any mating surfaces if returned to the engine.

I used Motul 10-40 regular oil during the break in in order to allow the parts to mate to each other properly. I avoided prolonged operation at any RPM so that I did not put wear marks on the bearings that were from RPM load. I also put K&N oil filters on with each oil change to make sure the metallic particles were removed from the engine. I also changed the oil VERY HOT to make sure it all drained out completely taking any and all metallic particles with it. In fact rocking the bike side to side during the oil drain allowed me to remove another few ounces of oil that would have stayed in had I not rocked the bike. The OM says nothing about this and if not rocked or leaned side to side will allow old oil and metallic particles to remain and mix with the fresh oil.
This is one reason that I do the oil changes myself and do not trust the OM or dealers as they do not specify nor lean the bike to completely remove the old oil.

At 1000 miles, having changed the oil and filter already 3 times, the filter and oil looked very clean when I switched to full synthetic and changed the filter. Has anyone looked at their oil at 1000 to 1200 miles before switching to full synthetic? If there is still metallic particles in the old oil, perhaps the engine is not completely broken in yet and should not be given full synthetic oil yet.
I look at the oil closely to see what is going on inside my engine and to make sure I am breaking in the engine properly. Taking the bike to he dealer eliminates this scrutiny as they just drain, swap filter and refill at the designated schedule points in the OM no matter how you are riding the bike or how hard or easy you are taking it on the engine.

Sorry about the long reply but I think paying attention to the bike is more important than just following a break in schedule and recommended shift points etc. We all ride our own way and those differences could mean you need to deviate from the OM regarding scheduled maintenance as in my case.

My first oil change was very dirty. (600 miles) Iwhen straith with Rotella Full Synth 5w40 and Mobile oil filter with no issues. I changed my oil at 4000 miles and everything was like it suppose to be. Barelly any metal particles and just a bit black, like it suppose to be. Barelly burn any oil, couldn't tellby reading the oil level for sure. In my book, the rings were broke in after 600 miles. But going straith to full synth can be another 4 pages debate... lol :banghead:

 

[Uno979]

I have. Friend who manages a oil line place and ordered me a case of rotella T-6 syn. I'll pick it up next payday.

 

[Spunky99]

I have. Friend who manages a oil line place and ordered me a case of rotella T-6 syn. I'll pick it up next payday.

Rotella and Amsoil seem to be very popular

 

[Roaddawg]

"This accelerated break in did not comply with the OM and therefore an accelerated oil change schedule was required to compensate for the increased particle counts in the oil." - Spunky

I think this one sentence sums up your whole argument on how you broke in your bike and why you changed your oil so frequently. :thumbup:

 

[Spunky99]

"This accelerated break in did not comply with the OM and therefore an accelerated oil change schedule was required to compensate for the increased particle counts in the oil." - Spunky

I think this one sentence sums up your whole argument on how you broke in your bike and why you changed your oil so frequently. :thumbup:

Yabba Dabba Dooooooo......