Effects of changing sprockets


Marthy

World Most Bad A$$ 6R
Elite Member

dste0395

New Member
All it need is a signal. I installed some of that stuff on old racecars. If you can program the speedo (trigger per turn and wheel diameter) you can probably use the sensor that you have. Just hook the signal wire.

Is this for a special project? You can find a speedo on ebay...
Yes, I am turning my FZ into a Cafe Racer and want to change out the speedo to be more old school while still retaining the digital age.
 

Fizzi6ergal

New Member
So, me, being a noob to the changing sprockets as well. I have 15,500 miles on my original chain and sprockets. And I'm thinking it is about time to change them out. I commute about 30 miles everyday to work, I was thinking about the +1/+0 for my sprockets this go round. I'm not one to pin the throttle at the upmost high speed, but I do like my get-up and go. I am planning on moving closer to my work here in the next couple years(hopefully). I'm just wondering, since I do mostly commuting(I have fun on my commute, it's not just a boring straight ride for me), what would be the advantage and disadvantage of changing my sprockets to the +1/+0? I know about the higher cruising RPM's. Right now at about 70mph, I cruise right around 6500 RPM's. What is the disadvantage of having a higher cruising RPM? And I know for a fact my speedometer is fast about 7mph. People were saying that it could help get my actual speed closer to my speedometer speed????????
 

DragonBlu

Member
The speedo will be very close to accurate. With a plus 1 front you will have a LOWER cruising rpm. Gas mileage might increase a little. Most of all you will hardly notice any difference at all unless you run at the track. The low end power loss is hardly noticeable by the average rider. That's my experience.
 
Last edited:

MichaelInVenice

Lot of Class, Mostly Low
Elite Member

taylorswendsen

New Member
Pickles, it would be really useful to compare acceleration from 60 mph to 80 mph. Does the +1/+0 perform a little more competitively there? I'd much rather have more acceleration available on the highway than off the line.
 

Invader Jim

New Member
Pickles, it would be really useful to compare acceleration from 60 mph to 80 mph. Does the +1/+0 perform a little more competitively there? I'd much rather have more acceleration available on the highway than off the line.
Assuming you are in 6th gear, the acceleration from 60 to 80 would be slightly slower in my opinion. At 60 mph your RPMs are going to be a little lower with the +1 compared to the stock. The 6R maxes out power at 9,000 RPM (~estimate) and stock will have higher RPM at 60 mph than +1. Both stock and +1 will be a long way from 9K RPM at 60 mph in 6th gear. Would the acceleration difference actually be noticeable? My guess is it would not be significant.

I got my power/RPM data from the chart at 2012 Kawasaki Ninja 650 vs. 2012 Yamaha FZ6R - Motorcyclist Magazine.
 

leem00

Sport touring Member
Elite Member

UselessPickles

New Member
Pickles, it would be really useful to compare acceleration from 60 mph to 80 mph. Does the +1/+0 perform a little more competitively there? I'd much rather have more acceleration available on the highway than off the line.
If you're talking about 60-80mph acceleration in top gear (6th), here's what my calculations come up with...

Stock: 4.02s
+1/+0: 4.50s

That's actually a bigger difference than I expected. I'm not sure I would call that "competitive".
 

Neo

New Member
i have -1 front and +2 rear. i was expecting it to be really crazy and pop mono's all the time but that's not the case. it does however make popping a mono a little more easier.

the best part is the extra torque if i was to take a corner before i would need to be in second gear because i found that third gear did not have enough revs. but with the sprockets now it can be taken easily in third gear and i can pull out of the corner without having the shift. i think the bike is much easier to ride now and i have the confidence to take the corner faster.

On the negative side going 100kph /62 mph on the hi way will put the revs up about 1000-1500 revs. and your speedo will be out. for my speedo 60kph is 66 on the speedo. 80 is 88 and 100 is 110. so i need to ride a little over the speed limit to be on the limit but i normally go with the traffic flow so its not so much on and issue.

overall i am very happy a lot of my riding is around town i don't get on the hi way that often. as for fuel economy i have not noticed any real difference.
 
Y

yellowfz

If you can launch faster on the FZ6R in 2nd gear, then you are doing something wrong. 1st gear gives you more acceleration, and not so much that it's unusable.

The only way a 2nd gear launch would be better is if 1st gear is so excessively powerful AND short that it's unusable because you redline very quickly while spinning tires uncontrollably. This has actually been reported to be true for one of those small almost-a-go-kart cars (can't remember if it was the Ariel Atom, or the T-Rex).

The FZ6R definitely does not suffer from this problem. As requested, here's some 1st and 2nd gear launch comparisons with -1/+0 sprockets:

1/4 mile (hard launch)
1st: 12.24s @ 104.6mph
2nd: 12.76s @ 104.5mph

0-60mph (hard launch)
1st: 3.62s
2nd: 4.23s

0-100mph (hard launch)
1st: 10.60s
2nd: 11.21s
Lets just say I agree to disagree. Not launching faster but using less time pressing the gear lever, I have raced for years and have used this to blast past lots of riders, it works, all there is to it.
 
Y

yellowfz

So If i get the Universal speedo Koso DL Universal Electronic Speedometer - Electrical - sportbike - Superbike Toy Store - 1.866.999.9823 and go with the old school front wheel sensor, then I can ditch the current speedo right?

If I ditch the current speedo then how do I control my turn signals and brake light, would that mean that the turn signals and brake light have to have independent wiring now?

Again, sorry, total NOOB at this stuff.
Yeah blinkers are usually separate, get a manual and the wiring diagram is there.
Since the speedos are electronic aren't they just voltage output? PWM pulse width modulation.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

UselessPickles

New Member
Lets just say I agree to disagree. Not launching faster but using less time pressing the gear lever, I have raced for years and have used this to blast past lots of riders, it works, all there is to it.
Then you shift way too slow :)

If you launch in 2nd, then you give up several seconds worth of significantly more acceleration off the line in 1st to avoid spending a quarter second shifting from 1st to 2nd.

My simulations take into consideration shifting times (and the deceleration that happens during that time). The math doesn't lie, and you can disagree with it all you want, but it's not a matter of opinion.

It might work in a V8 muscle car with lots of low end torque, a short 1st gear, and relatively slower shifts than a motorcycle. But I guarantee you a 2nd gear launch will not be faster on an FZ6R unless you are doing something very wrong.
 

VRIIClubby

New Member
Then you shift way too slow :)

If you launch in 2nd, then you give up several seconds worth of significantly more acceleration off the line in 1st to avoid spending a quarter second shifting from 1st to 2nd.

My simulations take into consideration shifting times (and the deceleration that happens during that time). The math doesn't lie, and you can disagree with it all you want, but it's not a matter of opinion.

It might work in a V8 muscle car with lots of low end torque, a short 1st gear, and relatively slower shifts than a motorcycle. But I guarantee you a 2nd gear launch will not be faster on an FZ6R unless you are doing something very wrong.
quite an arrogant response there! Maths can be wrong (global warming charts anyone? lol) , its only as good as the person putting the data in (and that data) and the person interpreting that data.

So, from your calculations, you know the EXACT time it takes for EVERYONE to shift up??? Dont be foolish!

As much as someone can learn in the classroom, a person on the "ground" can learn just as much, if not more at a quicker pace...So someone saying they have raced for "years" and has REAL WORLD experience in the subject I would take that advice on board, It doesnt mean it's 100% correct but then neither is maths. remember, E does NOT = MC2.

EDIT: I still think the data you have supplied is good as a general rule of thumb, but the real world effects things dramatically, and even at this day in age, maths cant predict or calculate the absolute truth (yet). thanks for the time you have taken out to put all this forward though.
 
Last edited:

UselessPickles

New Member
quite an arrogant response there!
Arrogant: Having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.
In this context, you must be referring to me having an exaggerated sense of the abilities of my simulation. I could go into detail about how my simulation works if you really want me to, then you might understand how I have a non-exaggerated amount of confidence in the ability of my simulation to properly determine that a 1st gear launch is the fastest way to accelerate on an FZ6R.

Also, comparing to global warming models is quite unfair. Weather and climate are very complex and not understood well enough to be able to accurately model. What I am modeling in my simulations is quite simple and well-understood, at least at the scale that matters: engine torque multiplied through gear ratios and tire size to determine force of rear wheel against the road, force due to drag, etc.

So, from your calculations, you know the EXACT time it takes for EVERYONE to shift up??? Dont be foolish!
(NOTE: Knowing "exactly" how fast a particular person can shift is irrelevant. See towards the end of this post where I determined that you'd have to shift extraordinarily slow for 2nd gear to be faster)

No, but I know that I shift in about 0.32 seconds thanks to my data logger (incorrectly said 1/4 second earlier), and I am not at expert racer/shifter. If you can get up to 60mph, or a 1/4 mile on and FZ6R faster by starting in 2nd gear to "save time" from shifting from 1st to 2nd, then you are shifting very slow and should work on your shifting technique so you stop shortening your clutch life by slipping it longer to launch in 2nd. If you already can shift quickly, then you are botching something else about your 1st gear launch if you can do it quicker in 2nd. If you've beat other people in races using a 2nd gear launch technique, it only means that you were faster than that other person on their bike. If you launched properly in 1st, you would have beaten them by a larger margin.

I know the data and calculations are not 100% perfect, and they simulate ideal conditions, make some assumptions, and only simulate the most significant forces involved, etc. But the point is not to 100% accurately calculate exactly what a person in the real world will accomplish. There's no need to simulate tire deformation, tire temperature, suspension reactions to power output slightly changing aerodynamics, etc., to determine whether 1st gear or 2nd gear launch is faster. They're just not significant for this purpose.

The point is to be able to compare relative results of differences (launching in 1st vs 2nd, different sprocket sizes, different weight, etc) without ANY other variables messing with the results (differences in riders, conditions, rider error, etc). For that purpose, the data and calculations are quite adequate that if they show that launching in 2nd gear is 0.5s slower than launching in 1st, I am 100% confident in saying that launching in 1st gear is definitely faster than launching in 2nd on the FZ6R (assuming that you launch well and shift reasonably quickly).

Is it possible that some person in some circumstances with certain riding style can be faster by launching in 2nd (faster than themselves launching in 1st)? Sure. But that means that that person is doing something quite wrong while attempting to launch in 1st, because the bike is clearly capable of accelerating faster from a 1st gear launch.

Some examples:

Stock FZ6R, perfect hard launch at 8000 rpms (at max torque, fastest you could possibly launch). For a 2nd gear launch to be faster 0-60mph than a 1st gear launch (assuming all else equal), your shift from 1st to 2nd would have to be slower than 1 second.

You're not a racer doing high RPM launches and just want to know how things work "in the real world" on the streets? Let's go with a more reasonable 3000 rpm launch (much easier to manage, and more like an average rider's "quick launch" from a traffic light). In this situation, your 1st to 2nd gear shift would have to take more than 1.7 seconds in order for a 2nd gear launch to be faster! The less perfect a rider you are, the MORE beneficial it is to launch in 1st gear than 2nd gear.

Now these numbers are not 100% exactly accurate of a perfect physics simulation of real world conditions of course, but the relative comparisons (and trends) between different simulated situations have such significantly different results that it's highly unlikely that small amounts of rounding error in calculations (because I have to simulate physics in very small slices of time increments, rather than how the real world works continuously), slightly imperfect torque data due to linear interpolation between 100 RPM data points, lack of perfect simulation of the entire universe down to the quantum level, etc., are causing me to wrongly claim that 1st gear launches are faster.
 
Last edited:

Scott_Thomas

Insert title Here
Elite Member

UselessPickles

New Member
:popcorn:..........:rockon:
Sorry, this show is now over... unless someone wants to meet up with me and try to prove to me that in "the real world" things are so much different than my simulation that a 2nd gear launch will beat a 1st gear launch on an FZ6R :)

I could use a trip to the drag strip. It's been a while.
 

Scott_Thomas

Insert title Here
Elite Member


Top