Leaning question

[Adol1981]

Hello everyone.

First post to this site!

I just got my FZ6R about 3 weeks ago and have been riding every day.

I've been going through the twisties, and since I've been leaning pretty hard on it found that the back tire seems to loose traction in my lean.

I'm wondering if that's a normal thing that I just need to get used to (pretty new rider), or I may need an upgrade on my tires. I'm currently using the stock battle ax tires for the FZ6R.

I'd like to lean even further, but get a little jittery when I loose the traction.

Also, if I do need better tires, what do you recommend? Preferably something that won't burn up after a few weeks I do also use the bike to commute.

 

[derf1278]

Welcome! I like hitting twisties too. Have you set your rear suspension to the hardest setting yet? I found it makes a BIG difference. When my stock tires wore out I switched to Bridgestone T30s. They are good for both longer tire life and weekend mountain runs.

 

[BustedKnuckle]

How new are the tires is this a brand new bike you bought two weeks ago? Are you leaning to the point where the foot peg scraps the ground or is the tire slipping before even that point? Either way, no you don't want that slipping through a turn.

 

[ksk operator 1]

harden rear suspension:zombie:

 

[brownwa]

+1 on the harder rear suspension.

Noticed the rear tire slipping problem on my first track day a few weeks ago. Actually I would call it excessive oversteer and not necessarily slipping. The tire wasn't sliding out or anything but there was serious oversteer. My fz6r is a 2015, still with the OEM tires on it. Had 600 miles on the odometer when I took it to the track.

Also could be that your tires are new. The dealer told me not to lean the thing until I had put some serious miles on it. Basically at the track it was the first time I'd leaned the bike past street limits. So it was virgin rubber that was kissing the track. Assuming the same thing for you in the twisties. My rear spring preload is set to 4, which was fine for road twisties but far too soft for the track. I think dialing it up to 6 should solve the issue for you. However I just live with the oversteer and a spring preload of 4 because it has saved my *** a couple of times hitting bumps in a corner on the street.

 

[Adol1981]

Thanks for the replies.

The bike is not new. I bought it second hand with 4000 miles on it. The slipping feeling starts to happen well before I get the pegs to the ground. I would say, from my limited experience, that I am about half way into a full lean, and the back starts to feel a little wobbly like it's not catching.

Since I don't really know how new the tires are, I am highly considering just getting a new pair on it.

Also, thanks for the suspension hardening idea. I'll look up on how to do it. Seems it's pretty easy?

 

[Eorr]

I had the same issue... Rear suspension needs to be tighter. On another note, here a few books I found to be very helpful reference aggressive riding.

Mastering The Ride. By David Bough
Total Control. By Lee Parks
Motprcycle 201. By David Preston

Hope this helps.

 

[buzzbomb]

Wow, that's a big 'ol can of worms! Just stiffening the preload in the rear may help or may make it worse. The correct preload is dependent upon the weight placed on the bike. You want the rear shock to operate as a shock and absorb bumps and such.

Otherwise, it's your tire absorbing the bumps and when the rubber springs back the contact patch gets smaller and you lose traction. You hear racing teams talk endlessly about "dialing in the suspension" to fit the course and the conditions. Simply cranking your rear preload to max may not be your answer.

This video is just an example. There are lots of them out there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMDCEU98_9w

Your tire pressure is also a very critical component to traction. Too much pressure, and the tire cannot flex and you've got a very small contact patch which easily loses traction. Too little pressure and the tire cannot maintain it's shape, as the rubber "rolls" and yet again, you lose traction.

Tire type is also an obvious component to traction. If you're riding so leaned over that you're scraping pegs, you want a darn sticky tire. Sticky tires don't last long, since they get their traction by literally being sticky and they leave rubber on the asphalt with every rotation. Personally, I like the PilotRoad series from Michelin. They are not sticky. They are a compromise, with a harder center for straight runs, softer sides to be stickier in a lean and have great wet traction. They are a great commuting tire and do me well enough in the twisties. I don't scrape pegs, though.

Which brings us to the most critical component of this equation: The rider. I've said it many times in previous posts - "If you are scraping pegs you are doing it wrong." Don't take my word for it. Watch some MOTO GP vids. Those guys NEVER scrape a peg. It's not because they are not riding aggressively enough to win a race. It's because of proper form. Sure they are on true supersports with higher pegs, so they can naturally lean farther. It goes well beyond that, though.

It's about entry speed and angle into the corner. It's about the line through the corner. It's about braking properly to preload the suspension and throttling the right amount at the right moment to maintain traction.

It's about how their weight is distributed: How far they hang off, where they are pushing their weight onto the bike and where they keep their weight off the bike.

All this and more I can't think of at the moment is why I said you opened a big 'ol can of worms. If you're riding that agressively then you probably need more than cranking up the rear preload with a different set of tires. Just my 2c.

Stay safe. The rubber is supposed to be the part that meets the road.

 

[Eorr]

You are exactly right.......hence the reason to read the three books listed above. All three go into what your talking about in even greater detail. The FZ6R is known for its light suspension at factory setting and most all riders will have to stiffen the suspension. The ultimate question is how much and that takes us to the variables you have mentioned. Very good analysis though and always important to remember and talk about.

 

[buzzbomb]

You are exactly right.......hence the reason to read the three books listed above. All three go into what your talking about in even greater detail. The FZ6R is known for its light suspension at factory setting and most all riders will have to stiffen the suspension. The ultimate question is how much and that takes us to the variables you have mentioned. Very good analysis though and always important to remember and talk about.

Eorr, I think it goes beyond just remembering and talking about. The points I mentioned are the basic physics that keep an aggressive rider with two tires down rather than up.

I don't want people to remember and talk about those points. They need to recognize the reality of them and comply to them if they are going to ride aggressively. Even a little bit.

Otherwise, bad things can happen. It's not a "let's talk about it" exercise. It's a "Holy FRACK, if I don't learn this it can kill me!" exercise.

 

[Adol1981]

Just ordered Mastering the Ride off ebay.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

 

[Eorr]

Eorr, I think it goes beyond just remembering and talking about. The points I mentioned are the basic physics that keep an aggressive rider with two tires down rather than up.

I don't want people to remember and talk about those points. They need to recognize the reality of them and comply to them if they are going to ride aggressively. Even a little bit.

Otherwise, bad things can happen. It's not a "let's talk about it" exercise. It's a "Holy FRACK, if I don't learn this it can kill me!" exercise.

Buzzbomb, I am not arguing your point, I am agreeing with your analysis. That is why I listed the three books above. i think the outcome of getting it wrong is obvious and can certainly be a self correcting problem if given a second chance to fix it (should one be so lucky). Subsequently, we need to remember these facts and talk about them. Where there is understanding fear is removed. By talking about these issues and remembering them we become better and stronger riders.

 

[buzzbomb]

Buzzbomb, I am not arguing your point, I am agreeing with your analysis. That is why I listed the three books above. i think the outcome of getting it wrong is obvious and can certainly be a self correcting problem if given a second chance to fix it (should one be so lucky). Subsequently, we need to remember these facts and talk about them. Where there is understanding fear is removed. By talking about these issues and remembering them we become better and stronger riders.

No! The fear should never be removed! We've got to realize that we ride a motorcycle. Two wheels with limited traction. There is no impact protection.

Respect the danger inherent in riding a motorcycle. Learn the dynamics of the physics involved in staying upright and always have an out.

Are you afraid of what the world can do to you on your little machine? Good! Be afraid. Be very afraid. Learn what your machine and you can do. Do everything you can to improve your skills and stay safe. Don't ever stop being afraid of what the world can toss at you.

And for God's sake put on some freakin' gear!

A fearless rider, on public roads is not only looking death in the face, they are a danger to everyone else around them.

Respect the machine. Learn to use and love it. Be afraid of everything else. Always on the look-out, always aware of the thousands of things that can kill you while on a motorcycle. Learn to walk that fine line, and you'll be a Rider.

 

[Eorr]

Well I have to disagree with that point. Respect yes fear no. There is no need to fear your bike. I rode for years with fear which resulted in a serious collision. Once I empowered myself with knowledge, a healthy respect, along with understanding my limitations; it freed me up and I now love riding without fear. It makes me sad that you fear riding.....but if that's what keeps you safe then by all means.
As to your point about gear you are spot on! One should always dress for the crash. Anyway, it's been nice chatting and I'm glad you care enough to share your concerns and thoughts. God bless and keep the rubber on the road!

 

[Chucker]

At the end of the day, Adol1981, your issue is probably related more to your skill level, than the grip of your tires and your suspension setup. Yes, if you're going to ride very aggressively in the twisties, you need grippier tires. And yes, you need your suspension set up correctly. Having said that, if you don't use proper body positioning while riding aggressively in the twisties, you will likely have a bad experience sooner or later. There are countless videos of guys on supersports with hypersport tires lowsiding in the canyons and it is usually due to a lack of skills. At the same time, there are many riders of FZ6Rs, even some on stock tires, that have pushed their bikes and tires close to the limit in a controlled manner.

You can read about body positioning and proper lines through turns, even how to set up your suspension, but the best way to learn is to take a course and have a pro critique and coach you. You will be amazed at how much you don't know or don't do, and you will definitely improve drastically. My opinion is that the cost of the course will be less than the repairs to your bike, should you have a mishap.

 

[Eorr]

Well said Chucker!! That's sound advise!

 

[Marthy]

6R is an alright bike but not a SS. First thing to do is set the suspension right. Meaning go to racetech website and use their spring calculator... make sure your spring rate and rider sag is set properly. You should not really ran out of tires on the 6R, not enough power. But aim for a 10% rise on the front and 20% on the back tires from cold to hot psi. By example

F 30 to 33 psi from cold to hot
R 30 to 36 psi from cold to hot

That mean you have the proper heat build up in your tires for maximum grip. Don't hit the twisties with 42 psi...

 

[RoadTrip]

There might be some small tweaks to suspension and tire pressures that would help, however I can tell you that I was slipping last year and am not this year (same bike, tires, and suspension settings). My lean and speeds have improved while slips have been reduced, most likely simply due to experience, body position, throttle control, corner set up, and smoothness are better than last year.

It's hard to believe that after 4yrs and 40K miles I still continue to improve; being aggressive and ballsy is not the way, for me it is getting into a rhythm, staying relaxed, and riding at my level. It makes no difference if someone is better than me, I am having a ball improving on my level, who cares about chicken strips, knees touching, or youtube heroics. Just be yourself, listen to your bike, and keep learning.

 

[JonKerr]

There might be some small tweaks to suspension and tire pressures that would help, however I can tell you that I was slipping last year and am not this year (same bike, tires, and suspension settings). My lean and speeds have improved while slips have been reduced, most likely simply due to experience, body position, throttle control, corner set up, and smoothness are better than last year.

It's hard to believe that after 4yrs and 40K miles I still continue to improve; being aggressive and ballsy is not the way, for me it is getting into a rhythm, staying relaxed, and riding at my level. It makes no difference if someone is better than me, I am having a ball improving on my level, who cares about chicken strips, knees touching, or youtube heroics. Just be yourself, listen to your bike, and keep learning.

Best post on this thread.

 

[buzzbomb]

It's hard to believe that after 4yrs and 40K miles I still continue to improve; being aggressive and ballsy is not the way, for me it is getting into a rhythm, staying relaxed, and riding at my level. It makes no difference if someone is better than me, I am having a ball improving on my level, who cares about chicken strips, knees touching, or youtube heroics. Just be yourself, listen to your bike, and keep learning.

I agree with JK. Best post in this thread. The only thing I would add to it is situational awareness. Always be aware of what's going on around you. Well said sir, well said. Kudos on the way.