Brakes q.

[2wheelie]

I think that my front brakes aren't as grabby as say the ones on R6 or zx6r which I had before. I have to squeeze more and the stopping power is not as responsive as on the sport bikes. Is that how they come, or just my bike?
BTW it always was the case since I got the bike w/500 miles on it.

 

[JonKerr]

I think that my front brakes aren't as grabby as say the ones on R6 or zx6r which I had before. I have to squeeze more and the stopping power is not as responsive as on the sport bikes. Is that how they come, or just my bike?
BTW it always was the case since I got the bike w/500 miles on it.

Our bike doesn't have the highest bite brakes. You can put some aftermarket pads and SS brake lines to increase bite. Also if you want to spend a bit of cash you can get rotors that have a lot more surface area to grab. Something like these.

 

[dart1963]

yeah, I find the 90+ weather make them feel really spongy... seem to get "better" in the cold, stupid rubber brake lines

I also found out, when I thought my front pads were gone... one of them was twice as worn as the other... think one of the lines may have had air in it from the factory... think bleeding the brakes should be added to the 600 mile service, just in case.

I put on the sintered pads, changed the fluid, bled the lines and it's been much better. Think the next time I put on new pads, or the brake lines just need replaced, I'm going with the steel braided lines to help.

Jon, got a link for that disc?

 

[JonKerr]

Braking Race Rotor - Dirt Bike Motocross - Motorcycle Superstore

They don't have that specific one for our bike. It's a motocross rotor. I just searched rotors on their site and pulled a picture off. But I'm sure there's an aftermarket rotor company out there that offers a similar rotor for our bike. Cross drilled, wave rotors like that that increase the edge surfaces which helps increase bite. Before I really started researching brakes for my mountain bike, I always thought that a solid standard rotor would be better since it has more pad to rotor surface contact. But it's the edge contact that will help increase bite.

Edit: Here's a link to the rear Galfer Rotor for our bike from Solomotoparts.com Galfer Wave Rotor (Rear) for FZ6R 09-10 - Brake Rotors - Solo Moto Parts I'm sure if they make a rear, they probably make a front. It's just not listed on their site.

Personally my brakes seem just fine for the way I ride. They're wearing extremely well. Over 16000 miles and when my mechanic was mounting my tires he asked me when I replaced my pads and rotors because they looked brand new. I agree they don't have the bite or the overall power of most supersports. I just rode an R6 Saturday and could tell I'd probably get spoiled by the brakes quickly. But for street riding, I'm not late braking, diving into corners and trail braking my way through turns to get every bit of corner speed I can. They have enough power to lift the rear wheel in an emergency stop as I found out the scary way personally. That's really all that I think I need unless I'm on the track.

 

[husker525]

Here are some tips for you as well. The stainless steel brake lines will help reduce that spongy feel about 35-40%. Use a high quality, high boiling point brake fluid such as Motul.

Galfer makes the brake parts for Tusk. If you order a Tusk wave rotor or S.S brake lines, they will have Galfer stamped on them. The difference is a huge savings in price, but the quality is still the same.

I use SS brake lines and wave rotors on all my race quads. It makes a huge difference in stopping power and feel. I replaced the brake fluid on my FZ6R with the Motul, and it reduced some of the sponginess I had before.

 

[Marthy]

Here's few facts about brake rotors and pads. The more surface you have, better it is. It's all about friction. Now cross drill rotors help keeping the surface clean and avoid dust build up. It also keep the pads clean. With the dust build up it can occur that the pad get "glaze" (you will see the pad get more shinny in some area = bad, no bite) So with just the right amount of holes in the rotors you will have enough "cleaning effect" on the pads. Drilling holes too close from the edge will create high stress area and make the rotors crack... well this is where the wave rotors idea come from. On race cars we don't use wave rotors. Most rotors have an offset groove machine on the surface that does the same job.

The pads are the most influent component. Compare them to tires... Different compound will give you a different feel. Harder pads will have less initial bite, but as the heat build up the friction get better. The opposite with softer pads. A softer pad will give you a more aggressive bite initially but if you used them hard they will wear very quickly. We play with different compound during a race weekend usually. On the first session when the track is dirty and the grip is low we used hard pads to avoid brake lock up. As the track picked up grip we changed to a softer compound of pads for a better braking.

The hydraulic part... everyone know or heard about the brake line. SS brake will remove the spongy effect, and yes high boiling brake fluid will fix some of the spongy problem. As we all learn in our hydraulic classes. You can compress air but not fluid... well this is true. But brake fluid at hight temperature will have compressibility. Also the size of the master cylinder have a great effect on braking power. A smaller piston diameter will give you more power, but less sensitivity. In other words you will be building up more pressure in the same stroke but it will be harder to modulate the brake.

In conclusion if you want to improve your braking system. 1-Better brake lines. 2-Correct brake pads compound for your application 3-Bigger brake diameter (more leverage, torque) 4-Smaller piston in master cylinder 5-Higher boiling point brake fluid (Castrol SRF is the best thing $ can buy this days= about $95.00 a can)

If you did all that and it's not enough for your track day, buy a different bike. And remember, it's all about corner exit. Get in slow, get out fast!

One more thing that I forgot to mention. Before you change brake pads for a different compoung or brand, ask the manufacturer if you need to replace or scuff the rotors. Some pads leave a coating on the rotors that improve the Coeficiant of friction, and they work together. Very common with carbon/metalic brake pads (Performance Friction or PFC) If your goal is performance, I will recommend to change the rotors if you change to a different brake pads compound.

 

[Marthy]

Here's what I mean by groove on the surface of a rotors. This is one version from AP Racing. This is a better version than wave rotors. Maximum surface for friction and clean up the pads same way cross drilling does. I can't find the circular groove that I was talking about. It's pretty much the same configuration but It's a circular groove on the rotor surface that is offset from the center axis. It can be easly done on a lathe. :thumbup:

 

[dart1963]

Here's what I mean by groove on the surface of a rotors. This is one version from AP Racing. This is a better version than wave rotors. Maximum surface for friction and clean up the pads same way cross drilling does. I can't find the circular groove that I was talking about. It's pretty much the same configuration but It's a circular groove on the rotor surface that is offset from the center axis. It can be easly done on a lathe. :thumbup:

Do you know of any comparisons online? As in... braking distance, water effects, etc... Does going up to cross-drilled vs. the grooved ones only marginally improve performance, or is it significant?

Just curious... I know a lot of people talk about going to wave rotors for better braking, but don't know I've seen any charts.

 

[2wheelie]

Thank you all for the replies. I'll start with the simple things like upgrading lines, pads and oil to Motul. This should improve it.
I just remembered that few months ago I rode the FZ6 (none R) and its brakes also had much better grip, similar to R6. Not sure now what's the difference is between the 6 and 6r

 

[Marthy]

Do you know of any comparisons online? As in... braking distance, water effects, etc... Does going up to cross-drilled vs. the grooved ones only marginally improve performance, or is it significant?

Just curious... I know a lot of people talk about going to wave rotors for better braking, but don't know I've seen any charts.

I'm not sure where to look for some comparaison. But let me give you a good educated guess. If you are like me, go to work, a little twisty here and there... I wave disc will do a great job. It's light, keep the pads clean on the whole surface and look cool. Because you won't abuse them too much, it will be ok. A cold pads or rotors won't work good. An agressive pad with a small volume of steel will heat up quicker and grab better.

Now if you go to the track and abuse them all day long it's a different story. You need some volume to decipate heat. If you don't have enough volume, the rotors will over heat quickly then here goes the brakes.

That is exsacly what happen when it rain, everything is cold. It's all about being in the "heat range" of the brake pads. Take by example Carbon fiber brakes and pads. Not the stuff you get on some composite high performance car, the real Indy car and F1 stuff. Those are the best brake known to man. But you will kill yourself with those. 1- They won't stop, no initial bite. 2- By the time they grab, you will fly like a bird over the bar handle faster than you can blink! Why??? Because those brakes are efficient at very high temps. So what happen is you hit the brakes (doesn't stop) and as heat build up with friction, they grab! About twice as much as a conventional brake.

So next time you're watching an Indy Car race on an oval and you see a rooky driver miss his(or her) pitbox for tires and fuel...It mean he or she didn't warm up there brakes coming in the pits...no heat...no brakes.

So for a casual driver,wave rotor are fine. As long as you let them cool down if you abuse them (track style) That's probably why people say they brake better... Like I said, it's all about the right brake pad for your application.

 

[Spunky99]

Here's what I mean by groove on the surface of a rotors. This is one version from AP Racing. This is a better version than wave rotors. Maximum surface for friction and clean up the pads same way cross drilling does. I can't find the circular groove that I was talking about. It's pretty much the same configuration but It's a circular groove on the rotor surface that is offset from the center axis. It can be easly done on a lathe. :thumbup:

I use those drilled and grooved rotors on all my vehicles. Good stop no fade and consistent.
I looked at pricing on the wave rotors and I only find Galfer for $150.00 for the rear and $288.00 x2 for the front. $576.00 for a pair of front rotors? Holy crud....

I'm happy with Spiegler SS lines front and rear, Castrol hi temp fluid and scintered brake pads. I installed the EBC brake pads but I really like the Sixity ones I put on the NSR50. I'll change to the Sixity next time.
Really improved the braking on the bike. You have to be careful with the rear brake after SS lines and scintered brakes as it wants to lock up a lot easier. Your foot pressure modulation needs to improve to use the rear properly.

To go to about $750.00 in wave rotors on a FZ6R seems a bit overkill for a 600cc detuned bike. I'd think about it on a real sport bike but not the FZ6R.

 

[Marthy]

I use those drilled and grooved rotors on all my vehicles. Good stop no fade and consistent.
I looked at pricing on the wave rotors and I only find Galfer for $150.00 for the rear and $288.00 x2 for the front. $576.00 for a pair of front rotors? Holy crud....

I'm happy with Spiegler SS lines front and rear, Castrol hi temp fluid and scintered brake pads. I installed the EBC brake pads but I really like the Sixity ones I put on the NSR50. I'll change to the Sixity next time.
Really improved the braking on the bike. You have to be careful with the rear brake after SS lines and scintered brakes as it wants to lock up a lot easier. Your foot pressure modulation needs to improve to use the rear properly.

To go to about $750.00 in wave rotors on a FZ6R seems a bit overkill for a 600cc detuned bike. I'd think about it on a real sport bike but not the FZ6R.

$hit! Way too expensive! Looking at my rotors, when it will be time to change pasds I will put new rotors. I might machine a groove on a stock one, will be good enough. Front brake lines are the next thing on my list. I found a place here down the road who will make me some custom one. Since I have the Rental and the line are a bit too short. I don't think I will mess with the rear line... it's already way too sensitive... I found out a little while ago. I bet a stiffer front spring/shock will be required to support the bike better. I don't think better braking will necessary mean better stopping if you can't load that tire to the groung... it will just dive faster.

 

[Spunky99]

$hit! Way too expensive! Looking at my rotors, when it will be time to change pasds I will put new rotors. I might machine a groove on a stock one, will be good enough. Front brake lines are the next thing on my list. I found a place here down the road who will make me some custom one. Since I have the Rental and the line are a bit too short. I don't think I will mess with the rear line... it's already way too sensitive... I found out a little while ago. I bet a stiffer front spring/shock will be required to support the bike better. I don't think better braking will necessary mean better stopping if you can't load that tire to the groung... it will just dive faster.

I have the Race Tech springs front and rear so there is no dive.....just stop....

 

[sdouble]

I have some experience in fork design. Spring rate should be well adjusted to optimize the braking power. If it's too soft, you lose some time at the beginning of the braking phase : fork dive fast and you don't brake much. Once the fork is fully compressed, braking power is optimum. When the spring are too stiff, the mass transfer doesn't operate fully and you can't load to front wheel properly. The braking power is never optimum in that case.
The stock spring are correct for say 75-80 kg (165-175 lbs) drivers. If you are heavier than that by far, you should change spring.If you are a track addict, spring rate is ok for 155-165 lbs drivers.

 

[stuna]

ebc hh pads will stop you harder :thumbup: