I understand the physics and mechanics of leaning to turn. What I don't get is how hanging off can get your through a turn without having to lean the bike as much. I've found a couple articles that explain how to do it and just tell me it works, but haven't found one yet that details the said physics/mechanics.
Please explain hanging off while turning
- Thread starter Cerebus
- Start date
It's all about center of gravity and weight distribution......
Think of it like skiing......
Your outside foot puts pressure on the peg...this helps keep the bike stable. You don't have to hang off a ton, simply enough to affect the turn.
The weight distribution impact force. You will find the bike much more stable when hanging off a bit rather than just leaning the bike.
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centripetal force wants to keep the bike upright... hanging off puts center of mass and center of gravity off dead center... which allows to bike to compensate for those changes, staying upright. leaning off puts center of mass off, starting a counter steer.... when you see motogp guys lean forward in the middle of the turn.. they are putting the COM and COG off.. which changes contact patch on front tire, lean angle.
least thats my best understanding
least thats my best understanding
Many times, but it's so thick with information it's hard to remember everything. The book is also very good, I got it from my wife last Christmas... however I think the movie is better.
Twist movie #1 is not so good... I'd pass....
I've encountered yet another rider this past Sunday that was simply awesome. He rides an 09 R1 & fast as heck, doesn't lean off at all, super smooth lines, and cuts every turn like a perfect wedge.
Two weeks in a row I've been blown away by guys who are super fast and who don't hang off or over-lean. Crazy mad skills. >.<
Two weeks in a row I've been blown away by guys who are super fast and who don't hang off or over-lean. Crazy mad skills. >.<
Like others have said, it adds weight to the inside and lower to get the center of gravity lower and to the inside to let you go the same speed around a given corner with less lean. Or the same corner, faster, with the same lean. A good way to show this is if you put your body into a hanging off position on a straightaway. The bike will actually have to lean the opposite direction to stay straight. You'll see this a lot on a track at the end of a straight. You'll see a bike bike leaned slightly in the opposite direction as the riders get into position just before tipping into the turn.
TOTW II does the best job possible at explaining it. If you still don't "get it" after watching that video, watch it again. I've watched it a dozen times and learn more each time. Also, try it. Use the tips they give you in the video to do it correctly, any you'll feel the difference.
TOTW II does the best job possible at explaining it. If you still don't "get it" after watching that video, watch it again. I've watched it a dozen times and learn more each time. Also, try it. Use the tips they give you in the video to do it correctly, any you'll feel the difference.
I have seen guys who are faster than I am doing the same thing. You can get away with it on the street, but for the same speed, they're riding much closer to the limit with less room for error if they're sitting bolt upright on the bike than if they were doing the same speed and using proper body positioning.
There is a difference between "leaning the bike" & "hanging off of it"... I have "hung off my bike" at very very high speed & can assure you it is not for the faint of heart but you do get used to it. Some people consider them leaning real hard hanging off but it's not. By hanging off and actually pulling on it I am able to somehow keep it more upright in very high speed sweeping turns. Keep in mind I only "hang" off my bike at speeds in excess of what the FZ6R can do... I never got comfortable hanging off the 6r the way I do on the busa but I think it's just because of the overall size of the bike...
PS: I bet I look real silly when I do it lol
PS: I bet I look real silly when I do it lol
linkgt
Member
This X10..............
I'll use shots of myself from 94 as a visual. First image was taken in 2010, less than a year after I started riding. I'm sitting pretty much upright on the bike. This is a "25 MPH" corner, and I'm probably doing 30 at the most. And believe me, I felt like I was pushing it. I thought I was a fast guy already :facepalm:
In this image, same corner, very similar angle that the shot was taken from, taken about a few weeks ago. If you look at the actual lean angle of the bike, it's about the same. Maybe a 5º more at the most. I'm going closer to 55 or 60 in that same turn. Same lean angle, better body positioning (I'm far from having perfect form) and I have about the same room for error. Maybe even more since I'm much more comfortable at these kind of speeds now than I was at those speeds then, but I'm nearly twice as fast around that turn.
My body is farther to the inside, everything is lower, COG is much farther to the inside and lower so that the bike can go significantly faster around a turn with similar lean angle than with my weight up on top of the bike.
In this image, same corner, very similar angle that the shot was taken from, taken about a few weeks ago. If you look at the actual lean angle of the bike, it's about the same. Maybe a 5º more at the most. I'm going closer to 55 or 60 in that same turn. Same lean angle, better body positioning (I'm far from having perfect form) and I have about the same room for error. Maybe even more since I'm much more comfortable at these kind of speeds now than I was at those speeds then, but I'm nearly twice as fast around that turn.
My body is farther to the inside, everything is lower, COG is much farther to the inside and lower so that the bike can go significantly faster around a turn with similar lean angle than with my weight up on top of the bike.
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That's the brilliance of having the photogs out there so close to me. I have literally hundreds of pictures from that road. And while it's cool to have pics of yourself riding, the lessons that can be learned from them are invaluable. What you think you're doing on the bike and what you really are doing can be two very different things. Like I said, when that first pic was taken, I felt like I'd been riding on the edge, getting massive lean angle, my knee had to be close to the ground by now, right??? WRONG!!!! lol. The first picture I ever saw of myself on the bike I was shocked at what I actually looked like lol. Right then I realized just how much I had to learn (and still have to learn)
This was actually the very first picture that was taken of me riding. This was Palomar in 2009, 2 months after I started riding. I'd read Twist of the Wrist and thought I was "hanging off" because I'd shifted my butt 2" into the turn.
Same turn, 3 years later. Still not great form, but a hell of a lot better than I was.
This was actually the very first picture that was taken of me riding. This was Palomar in 2009, 2 months after I started riding. I'd read Twist of the Wrist and thought I was "hanging off" because I'd shifted my butt 2" into the turn.
Same turn, 3 years later. Still not great form, but a hell of a lot better than I was.
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Ok.. so.. I've been told by few friends who all ride "not pros by all means" tell me to just lean the bike and you stay straight. I guess they told me this for regular, town rides and not "at speeds".
I've been trying to get the lean down but I'm afraid I'll go down or go highside on curbs.. is it just a mental block? Do I need to just get over it and keep practicing?
I've been trying to get the lean down but I'm afraid I'll go down or go highside on curbs.. is it just a mental block? Do I need to just get over it and keep practicing?
Just leaning the bike will make it turn. And yes, if you're just riding around town on city streets, no need to hang off. You shouldn't be going around corners in town fast enough to need much lean angle at all. Hanging off is generally used if you're cornering at speed. But there are techniques to getting the bike to turn, not "just lean." Counter steering is how you initiate a lean. If you're not aware of what counter steering is, you really need to read some books like the Keith Code books. Once you've initiated the lean, looking through the corner and throttle control are how you get through the corner. This bike is capable of much more than you are at this point without high siding, low siding, or any other crash, unless you cause it.
Yep well versed in counter-steering.. or counter-weight.. just need to see if I can get this lean on the open roads then I guess.
I have the Military Sport Rider Course Friday.. maybe they'll give out some pointers as well.
FastFreddy
New Member
Make sure you are comfortable with normal riding first before starting to hang off more.
I started off with keeping my butt in the seat and leaning my head towards handlebars to start with. With shoulders and chest towards the inside, not twisted towards the outside.
The next step is to position the butt cheeks, one cheek on, one cheek off, before you start braking. Keep both knees squeezing the tank while you brake, but with only one cheek on the seat. Then as you turn in, the inside knee comes out and you lean into it as before.
Andy Ibbott (of UK Californian Superbike School)explains how to get the cheek in position without upsetting the handlebars, known as the Knee to Knee. (push with the inside knee to move cheeks without lifting up)
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt9lB-LErQ4]Superbike School UK: Knee to Knee part 1 - YouTube[/ame]
I started off with keeping my butt in the seat and leaning my head towards handlebars to start with. With shoulders and chest towards the inside, not twisted towards the outside.
The next step is to position the butt cheeks, one cheek on, one cheek off, before you start braking. Keep both knees squeezing the tank while you brake, but with only one cheek on the seat. Then as you turn in, the inside knee comes out and you lean into it as before.
Andy Ibbott (of UK Californian Superbike School)explains how to get the cheek in position without upsetting the handlebars, known as the Knee to Knee. (push with the inside knee to move cheeks without lifting up)
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt9lB-LErQ4]Superbike School UK: Knee to Knee part 1 - YouTube[/ame]
FastFreddy
New Member
The most important thing to realise is that you are always gentle on the bars.
The hands on the bars are only there to control, not to support any weight.
You have to learn to use the legs to grip the bike with.
The hands on the bars are only there to control, not to support any weight.
You have to learn to use the legs to grip the bike with.