Problem started at 800 miles. Engine light came on, then would not restart afer refueling. The bike acts like it is a dead battery, but starts instantly when it is bump started. At one point entire display went out. Happened three times today during 300 mile ride. Only addition to electrical system are PIAA 1100x driving lights. Today when engine light came on, it went off after turnig off PIAA's. Lights are installed as per factory instructions, with hot switch lead connected to tail light. Any thoughts as to what this could be?
New bike will not restart when hot
- Thread starter 2QUIK4U
- Start date
flyingminno
New Member
So you're saying its not turning over at all? Could it be you left it in first gear with the kickstand down, or the kickstand sensor is unplugged? Ruling out those possibilities, does it click, turn over or not make any noise at all when you press the starter?
Those two lamps are drawing 110w. Suspect that's enough extra draw to leave insufficient power for everything else until you start.
The biggest clue is that disconnecting the lamps eliminates the problem. A higher capacity battery might help, but the reality is that for motorcycles and their small batteries, all accessories really need to be of until the engine is started. Even after the engine is started, there isn't a whole lot of excess electrical power available. With the driving lamps alone, you've got very little left.
The mystery to me is that it only happens when hot.
The biggest clue is that disconnecting the lamps eliminates the problem. A higher capacity battery might help, but the reality is that for motorcycles and their small batteries, all accessories really need to be of until the engine is started. Even after the engine is started, there isn't a whole lot of excess electrical power available. With the driving lamps alone, you've got very little left.
The mystery to me is that it only happens when hot.
And, thinking through it, and thinking back to my college physics, I may have an answer.
A hot light bulb draws a lot more curent than a cold one. Depending on the bulb, it could be 10 times as much. It doesn't take a halogen bulb all that long to heat up (unlike florescents, that can take 60-90 seconds), but even a second or two are probably enough to allow you to start the bike when cold, at which point the alternator has taken over.
When you're starting the bike hot after a brief stop, you're also starting with hot light bulbs in those driving lights, which are drawing a lot more current than the same bulbs completely cold. Just enough of a difference to leave insufficient current for starting and maybe not even enough to power the instruments.
In any case, it comes down to the extra 110w draw of those driving lights. Double the draw of the headlights. You need to put a switch on the circuit, so they can be off when starting. As I said, a higher capacity battery if you can find one may also help, but probably not enough.
A hot light bulb draws a lot more curent than a cold one. Depending on the bulb, it could be 10 times as much. It doesn't take a halogen bulb all that long to heat up (unlike florescents, that can take 60-90 seconds), but even a second or two are probably enough to allow you to start the bike when cold, at which point the alternator has taken over.
When you're starting the bike hot after a brief stop, you're also starting with hot light bulbs in those driving lights, which are drawing a lot more current than the same bulbs completely cold. Just enough of a difference to leave insufficient current for starting and maybe not even enough to power the instruments.
In any case, it comes down to the extra 110w draw of those driving lights. Double the draw of the headlights. You need to put a switch on the circuit, so they can be off when starting. As I said, a higher capacity battery if you can find one may also help, but probably not enough.
Hi guys,
It 's not the stand switch,or trying to start the bike with the lights on. They are always turned on after starting, and off before shutting down. The strange thing is it does not happen every time I restart the bike. When it does happen, the bike sometimes tries to turn over for half a second- then makes a high pitched very rapid clicking sound. The horn and front signal/running lights operate normally, so it does not appear it is a drained battery. On bunp starting the bike fires right up and then runs normally. No code shows up onthe display. The bike is less than 2 months old, with 1615 miles on it. Unfortunately, the dealer where we bought the bike is 60 miles away, but it looks like we will have to take it back. Very dissapointing , for a new bike we hoped would be more dependable. Thank you for your help. Has anyone had a stator go bad on such a new machine?
It 's not the stand switch,or trying to start the bike with the lights on. They are always turned on after starting, and off before shutting down. The strange thing is it does not happen every time I restart the bike. When it does happen, the bike sometimes tries to turn over for half a second- then makes a high pitched very rapid clicking sound. The horn and front signal/running lights operate normally, so it does not appear it is a drained battery. On bunp starting the bike fires right up and then runs normally. No code shows up onthe display. The bike is less than 2 months old, with 1615 miles on it. Unfortunately, the dealer where we bought the bike is 60 miles away, but it looks like we will have to take it back. Very dissapointing , for a new bike we hoped would be more dependable. Thank you for your help. Has anyone had a stator go bad on such a new machine?
flyingminno
New Member
It sounds like electrical gremlins you have there. I'm sorry to hear, but I would take it back as well and demand action by the dealer. My bike almost 3 years old with 30,000 miles and has never once given me any issues, as it has run strong for mostly every one on the forum with high miles, so your reliability issues are not commonplace. For this reason alone I would take it back for repairs or replacement.Hi guys,
It 's not the stand switch,or trying to start the bike with the lights on. They are always turned on after starting, and off before shutting down. The strange thing is it does not happen every time I restart the bike. When it does happen, the bike sometimes tries to turn over for half a second- then makes a high pitched very rapid clicking sound. The horn and front signal/running lights operate normally, so it does not appear it is a drained battery. On bunp starting the bike fires right up and then runs normally. No code shows up onthe display. The bike is less than 2 months old, with 1615 miles on it. Unfortunately, the dealer where we bought the bike is 60 miles away, but it looks like we will have to take it back. Very dissapointing , for a new bike we hoped would be more dependable. Thank you for your help. Has anyone had a stator go bad on such a new machine?
OK, thanks for the extra information. That's a starter solenoid.
Often the problems with this are related to a low battery, bad connections from the battery (loose clamp, for example) or damaged wiring from the battery. Basically, the starter solenoid isn't getting sufficient current to get it to engage with the starting mechanism, so the starter motor can spin (high pitched whine) and maybe click a bit as it's trying to engage, but it won't actually engage and turn the engine over.
When you installed the lights, did you touch the main wiring off the battery? Attach something else to a battery terminal? Or (worst case) splice something in to the cable coming off the battery? Any changes there would be suspect and might get worse when hot due to expansion of metal surfaces. Check the battery terminals and tighten everything up whether you touched them or not. It's a new bike and sometimes things come loose, especially dealer-attached items like the positive battery terminal.
It could just be a bad solenoid too. I've had that exact set of symptoms on an airplane engine a few years back. Started fine when cold, but when it was warm, the solenoid (aka "Bendix") just would not engage. Had to leave it sitting for two hours at an airport in the middle of nowhere. That sucked.
Often the problems with this are related to a low battery, bad connections from the battery (loose clamp, for example) or damaged wiring from the battery. Basically, the starter solenoid isn't getting sufficient current to get it to engage with the starting mechanism, so the starter motor can spin (high pitched whine) and maybe click a bit as it's trying to engage, but it won't actually engage and turn the engine over.
When you installed the lights, did you touch the main wiring off the battery? Attach something else to a battery terminal? Or (worst case) splice something in to the cable coming off the battery? Any changes there would be suspect and might get worse when hot due to expansion of metal surfaces. Check the battery terminals and tighten everything up whether you touched them or not. It's a new bike and sometimes things come loose, especially dealer-attached items like the positive battery terminal.
It could just be a bad solenoid too. I've had that exact set of symptoms on an airplane engine a few years back. Started fine when cold, but when it was warm, the solenoid (aka "Bendix") just would not engage. Had to leave it sitting for two hours at an airport in the middle of nowhere. That sucked.
The instructions for your added lights have the hot coming of the tail light. That seems rather odd. I would suggest simply disconnecting them for a while and seeing if it makes any difference.
Brand new bike, only mod is some lights, and the bike won't start? The lights seem the obvious, first step in troubleshooting the problem. Just my opinion.
Brand new bike, only mod is some lights, and the bike won't start? The lights seem the obvious, first step in troubleshooting the problem. Just my opinion.
Hi Michael,
Thanks for your thoughts. The lights are installed correctly. The wiring harness connects directly to the positive and negative terminals with the positive switch wire from the relay getting current from the tail light blue lead. We have installed these same lights on our three other bikes with no problems. As far as wattage goes, a quick look at the service manual seems to indicate the AC magneto standard output is 330W at 5000rpm. I calculate a total draw of 91W with the other lights, so the 110w extra from the PIAA's should not be an issue. Sorry, when I said hot, I meant normal operating temps. 178-186 degrees.
Returned the bike to the dealer this morning. Started right up and ran fine 60 miles on the highway with the PIAA's on. No engine warning light came on, but when I turn it off, it would not restart. After filling out the paperwork we retried starting and it tried to turn over a little so I (and the dealer) beleive it is a charging issue. Seems like the battery was trying to recover a bit after letting it sit for a while. Perhaps with longer periods running, the battery is getting drawn down enough to activate the check engine light. This may explain the problem not occurring on every ride. What do you think? I'll post the finding of the dealership tech when I hear back from them. Thanks again for your timely response.
Thanks for your thoughts. The lights are installed correctly. The wiring harness connects directly to the positive and negative terminals with the positive switch wire from the relay getting current from the tail light blue lead. We have installed these same lights on our three other bikes with no problems. As far as wattage goes, a quick look at the service manual seems to indicate the AC magneto standard output is 330W at 5000rpm. I calculate a total draw of 91W with the other lights, so the 110w extra from the PIAA's should not be an issue. Sorry, when I said hot, I meant normal operating temps. 178-186 degrees.
Returned the bike to the dealer this morning. Started right up and ran fine 60 miles on the highway with the PIAA's on. No engine warning light came on, but when I turn it off, it would not restart. After filling out the paperwork we retried starting and it tried to turn over a little so I (and the dealer) beleive it is a charging issue. Seems like the battery was trying to recover a bit after letting it sit for a while. Perhaps with longer periods running, the battery is getting drawn down enough to activate the check engine light. This may explain the problem not occurring on every ride. What do you think? I'll post the finding of the dealership tech when I hear back from them. Thanks again for your timely response.
It comes with a relay and switch. Power actually comes straight off the battery. The switch power that activates the relay comes off something that activates with the bike. (Or you can have them come on with only high beam, only low beam, etc, depending on where you hook this up.) That's why I asked if he touched the battery lead. If it was somehow not re-attached well, that could be an issue.The instructions for your added lights have the hot coming of the tail light. That seems rather odd. I would suggest simply disconnecting them for a while and seeing if it makes any difference.
Brand new bike, only mod is some lights, and the bike won't start? The lights seem the obvious, first step in troubleshooting the problem. Just my opinion.
http://www.piaa.com/automotive-lamps/installation/PS_wiring_harness.pdf
Yup. Absolutely could be any of the above. I figured you were using the relay and the tail light only used to activate the relay, which is the right way to do it.Hi Michael,
Thanks for your thoughts. The lights are installed correctly. The wiring harness connects directly to the positive and negative terminals with the positive switch wire from the relay getting current from the tail light blue lead. We have installed these same lights on our three other bikes with no problems. As far as wattage goes, a quick look at the service manual seems to indicate the AC magneto standard output is 330W at 5000rpm. I calculate a total draw of 91W with the other lights, so the 110w extra from the PIAA's should not be an issue. Sorry, when I said hot, I meant normal operating temps. 178-186 degrees.
Returned the bike to the dealer this morning. Started right up and ran fine 60 miles on the highway with the PIAA's on. No engine warning light came on, but when I turn it off, it would not restart. After filling out the paperwork we retried starting and it tried to turn over a little so I (and the dealer) beleive it is a charging issue. Seems like the battery was trying to recover a bit after letting it sit for a while. Perhaps with longer periods running, the battery is getting drawn down enough to activate the check engine light. This may explain the problem not occurring on every ride. What do you think? I'll post the finding of the dealership tech when I hear back from them. Thanks again for your timely response.
Could be as simple as a bad battery or as complex as some of the regulation circuitry. Shouldn't happen on a new bike, but sometimes does.
I'd be interested in hearing what they come up with.
Hi Michael, and all,
Nice of you to give the link to the download for the wiring diagram. On the printed insructions it does however show the included fuse between the battery and the relay. Never had any problems ,(other than a blown bulb),in 14 years with these lights. I'll let you know what the dealer finds. Thanks
Nice of you to give the link to the download for the wiring diagram. On the printed insructions it does however show the included fuse between the battery and the relay. Never had any problems ,(other than a blown bulb),in 14 years with these lights. I'll let you know what the dealer finds. Thanks
There always should be a fuse (typically 20A for lights) between the battery and whatever it's powering. If there isn't, a short could cause serious damage to the battery, alternator and everything else. Haven't actually used the PIAA kit (have Hellas on my car), but they all are pretty much the same.Hi Michael, and all,
Nice of you to give the link to the download for the wiring diagram. On the printed insructions it does however show the included fuse between the battery and the relay. Never had any problems ,(other than a blown bulb),in 14 years with these lights. I'll let you know what the dealer finds. Thanks
I'm really waiting for the LED versions of these kinds of lights to come down in price. They're already almost there in terms of brightness, but at 2-3x the cost.
The service manager said the battery was completely dead , so they will charge it overnight and test tomorrow. PIAA informs me that the 1100x are rated at 4.5 amps each for a total of 9 amps, and the sevice manager said that may be a problem because the total for the bike running is only 10 amps. Does that sound right? If the output is 330 watts, wouldn't that be 27.5 amps. Tomorrow I'll talk to the Tech and try to get some more info. If these will not work, it looks like it may have to be the new 1100 LED model if I can return these. I agree they are pricey. spoiledbiker.com seems to have the best price. $309.00 We'll see what happens tomrrow.
That sounds really low. Might be the minimum output (at idle).
I know some people have talked about heated gloves, jackets, etc. which would typically drain about as much as those lights. You might want to look at some of those threads.
I know some people have talked about heated gloves, jackets, etc. which would typically drain about as much as those lights. You might want to look at some of those threads.
Well, the dealer did a complete check of the charging system, and here is what they found. Ignition switch on, bike not running, 7amp draw. Turn on PIAA's, it is 15 amps. With the bike running the break even point at which the system maintains a positive charging state with the PIAA's on is 4000 rpm. At 2100 rpm there is a negative 5 amp state of charge. So it looks like these lights would work OK if used on the highway exclusively, but in city traffic at idle it is going to be a problem. Additional loss with brake, and signal lights, not to mention a severe loss in hot weather when the fan comes on, would put the system into a major negative state of charge. Amazon has agreed to accept the return on these lights, so it's going to have to be the new 1100 LED model, (total 2amp draw) which I just ordered from another vendor. Hope this helps anyone who is considering these lights and saves you the time and trouble when deciding what to purchase. Thanks for all your input and help.
hfd1 tuner
New Member
15 amps that is a load these engines need to spin some rpm to get that. The stator outputs AC voltage and it goes up with rpm.You get low AC volts at idle and higher AC volts at 9 k example would be 15 volts at idle vs 50 volts at 9k. You would need a bigger battery/type non lead acid. But you are putting a big load on the regulator. Low battery voltage makes the amp load greater too so it is a cascading effect. So if normal load is 200 watts at 13.9 volts will be 14.388 amps it is going up at 11.9 volts to 16.806 amps. So you need less watts to make it work. Starter amp loads get even more wacked with lower voltage...EMF electro motive force crap....