How to practice sudden stops at high speed?

[fz6rowner]

Practice drills for sudden stops at high speed?

New rider here and ride with ATGATT. This week, I got a reminder that accident is a real possibility, no matter how cautious I am. I was passing at 55mph through a T-intersection with a side road on my right, where traffic is usually backed up at that stop sign, especially during busy hours. I slowed down a little when i noticed a SUV from opposite lane making a left into that side road. But even before that left turn was completed, a pizza delivery car abruptly took off from the stop sign and entered the main road making a left into my opposite lane. To deal with the surprise intrusion, I released the throttle and immediately applied both breaks. But the back wheel locked and skidded for a few feet. I was able to maintain balance and fortunately avoided the fall.

Reviewing the basic msf practice drills, I only see one drill for sudden stop and that too for under 20mph. I am looking for more practice drills for sudden stops at higher speeds - at 35mph, 45 mph, 55 mph, etc. Where can I find them?

 

[bro_paul]

New rider here and ride with ATGATT. This week, I got a reminder that accident is a real possibility, no matter how cautious I am. I was passing at 55mph through a T-intersection with a side road on my right, where traffic is usually backed up at that stop sign, especially during busy hours. I slowed down a little when i noticed a SUV from opposite lane making a left into that side road. But even before that left turn was completed, a pizza delivery car abruptly took off from the stop sign and entered the main road making a left into my opposite lane. To deal with the surprise intrusion, I released the throttle and immediately applied both breaks. But the back wheel locked and skidded for a few feet. I was able to maintain balance and fortunately avoided the fall.

Reviewing the basic msf practice drills, I only see one drill for sudden stop and that too for under 20mph. I am looking for more practice drills for sudden stops at higher speeds - at 35mph, 45 mph, 55 mph, etc. Where can I find them?

Msf drills? What? Mate you ask some weird stuff. And yes we get it you're a "new rider"... it's your openning line. Not sure what AGGGRRRTTTTAA is but are you serious? I'm pretty sure you're pulling everyones chain? Drills? Mate hop on your bike; if' you really have one, ride out the road, make sure no one is behind you and practice heavy braking. Then go a bit faster and brake a bit harder. Get a feel for your bike. Get a feel for where you start to lose grip and lock up and then forget what you just learnt because next time it will be different. Emergency braking is important but you are going to be faced with something different every time. Remember life is not a drill and you cant tick off a check list and be like sweet i'm good to go. Riding bikes on the road isn't a grading or some sort of test where you learn the answers. It's a hardcore street fight where there are no rules and no set outcomes and everyone is trying to kill you. And given half a chance they will. It's great you want to learn and up skill but that mostly comes from doing it. Not drills.

Ride, ride and ride some more.

Feel free to delete my post again Mr Moderator... does it hurt to tell the truth?

 

[lvennard]

atgatt - all the gear all the time. i didnt know it either, been riding 40 years and had to look this term up a couple months back because i had never heard of it before.

back in my day, the flintsone era, it was "which ever brother the helmet fit, thats who wore the helmet."

i am an atgatt guy nowadays, but didnt know there was a term for it.

 

[Rumpig]

Msf drills? What? Mate you ask some weird stuff. And yes we get it you're a "new rider"... it's your openning line. Not sure what AGGGRRRTTTTAA is but are you serious? I'm pretty sure you're pulling everyones chain? Drills? Mate hop on your bike; if' you really have one, ride out the road, make sure no one is behind you and practice heavy braking. Then go a bit faster and brake a bit harder. Get a feel for your bike. Get a feel for where you start to lose grip and lock up and then forget what you just learnt because next time it will be different. Emergency braking is important but you are going to be faced with something different every time. Remember life is not a drill and you cant tick off a check list and be like sweet i'm good to go. Riding bikes on the road isn't a grading or some sort of test where you learn the answers. It's a hardcore street fight where there are no rules and no set outcomes and everyone is trying to kill you. And given half a chance they will. It's great you want to learn and up skill but that mostly comes from doing it. Not drills.

Ride, ride and ride some more.

Feel free to delete my post again Mr Moderator... does it hurt to tell the truth?

I understood his post and know what ATGATT and MSF is, your the one that seems to be the goose as your name suggests.

Fist bump anyone?
<sarc>

 

[Fraze]

Let me google that for you

We were all new riders at one point. You'll figure it out.

 

[Scott_Thomas]

I went through msf some years back. There wasn't a drill in their course for sudden stops above 20 or 30mph. .

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[Spanky's Monkey]

I just recently took the MSF and they state that "you" as a rider need to practice threshold braking on "your" bike. The threshold will not change regardless of travel speed. There is not and will not be a course on how to quickly stop on your on personal bike. You need to know your machine and how hard you can brake on your machine. bro_paul has it right....ride, ride, ride and while you're at it ride some more.

 

[Scott_Thomas]

I just recently took the MSF and they state that "you" as a rider need to practice threshold braking on "your" bike. The threshold will not change regardless of travel speed. There is not and will not be a course on how to quickly stop on your on personal bike. You need to know your machine and how hard you can brake on your machine. bro_paul has it right....ride, ride, ride and while you're at it ride some more.

I loved the sudden stop drill. Was one of my favorite parts. I was able to stop that little bike on a dime. Like everyone says, just ride. Practice a 20 mph stop in a parking lot and call it a day. Been messing around on mine, becauwe I changed my brake lines to braided and new pads/fluids. Stopping power is increased a bit.

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[dart1963]

Most riders will avoid that particular situation by having an alternate path, they cover that well in the MSF, not stopping as quickly as possible (remember, that car behind will not stop as fast as you and you will get rear ended!). I would usually tend to slow well before hitting any kind of intersection where the opposite lane had a "yield on green", because half the time, they won't.

When I hit the deer, I chose to hit it... scary thought, but I had no out that I thought in that split second that would not send me into a spin(deer might still hit me from the side) and no way I was going to risk flipping the bike or going over the deer, I simply cut off as much speed as I could in that short time, then pegged the throttle to lift the front, then promptly got knocked off the bike and slid to a stop.

 

[BzB]

be careful with your use of the rear brake when it comes to panic stopping. the rear sliding around is the last thing you want to happen. the front brake should do the large majority of your stopping with panic breaking. in my experience i barely use the rear brake at all at speed, you really have to feather it.

the rear brake gets the most use at low speeds and i almost never use the front brake at slow speeds.

as others have mentioned with emergency braking...practice practice practice. also always try to keep an alternate route or escape route open. try to predict what traffic will do. as they say in msf terms you should focus on see (search evaluate execute).

 

[eskimo10]

There is not and will not be a course on how to quickly stop on your on personal bike.

I disagree with this part right here (in VA at least).. there is an advanced riders course in which you can bring your own bike and perform some more advanced maneuvers. That being said I have not taken it, so I don't know what they offer specifically in the course.

I do agree though that more riding time = the better you are with your bike. I realized the other day that I've had my FZ for almost 2 years and am way more comfortable riding it now than even last year.

be careful with your use of the rear brake when it comes to panic stopping. the rear sliding around is the last thing you want to happen. the front brake should do the large majority of your stopping with panic breaking. in my experience i barely use the rear brake at all at speed, you really have to feather it.

the rear brake gets the most use at low speeds and i almost never use the front brake at slow speeds.

as others have mentioned with emergency braking...practice practice practice. also always try to keep an alternate route or escape route open. try to predict what traffic will do. as they say in msf terms you should focus on see (search evaluate execute).

Again, here I disagree. I use my rear brake more than I use my front brake, HOWEVER in panic/emergency braking I use BOTH brakes together. Yes, the front brake does some like 70% of your braking... I feel that 100% of the braking is better than 70%, hence why I tend to use both.

That being said, I cannot agree more - practice, practice, practice. Know your escape routes, plan for the worst, know that cagers don't see you, aren't looking for you, and generally are distracted behind the wheel anyway.

 

[blkbrd]

(remember, that car behind will not stop as fast as you and you will get rear ended!).

You will have an extremely difficult time finding a car you can out brake. The average rider is nowhere near as capable as the guys who test bikes for a living, and the published braking distances of most cars are shorter than even the highest performing motorcycles.


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[Tom2112]

I get what the OP is saying and asking. I like to practice maneuvers as well. Most things can be done in a big parking lot, like a closed school or mall. But high speed emergency braking needs a lot of space. So take a ride out of town and find a long straight back road with very little traffic and good visibility and have at it. The fun part will be riding around looking for a good spot. It's more seat time!

 

[BlastOffMike]

True threshold braking is hard to safely practice. To find where the threshold is, you first need to exceed it and most of us don't want to try that!

I've practiced aggressive, but not true threshold braking in a parking lot using a crushed paper cup I found as a marker. I used a crack in the asphalt as a braking point then I accelerated to about 40mph then braked moderately aggressively and dropped the cup where i stopped. I circled around and repeated this, trying to get as close as possible to the same speed then initiating braking at the same point (the crack) and trying to stop sooner than the previous attempt (using something else as a marker).

I continued this until I got to a point where I was braking as hard as I was comfortable with. Hard to explain but there was a point where I "felt" that if I braked any harder, something bad would happen. Perhaps I wasn't at the true threshold but had to have been pretty close.

Repeating this exercise, trying to match the marker where I felt I was near the limit will help develop muscle memory. Really I probably need to practice much more frequently than I do to really get it to sink in. But still, I have a good feel for the max braking I can safely apply.

Of course in real world conditions there are lots of other factors to throw things off, obvious stuff like gravel, rain etc. You just need to make sure you're only gradually increasing brake pressure if you try something like this. Should it go bad, you'll probably be going slow enough to avoid much injury to yourself but it won't take much to hurt your bike!

Here's a decent video on motorcycle braking. It's kind of cheesy but there's some good info on the physics that are happening and the importance of using both brakes. https://youtu.be/i-f34n_74oM

Here's another: https://youtu.be/yQpJDux_M-w Plus you might want to check out some of this guy's other videos, some good stuff.

I really think deliberate practice is worthwhile instead of "just ride bro!!!". I had a close call this past weekend when I crested a hill to find a car stopped in the middle of the road to avoid a tiny dog that was loose. I was proud of how I handled it; braked quickly and aggressively but still smooth and controlled.

 

[alaskanflyboy]

Again, here I disagree. I use my rear brake more than I use my front brake, HOWEVER in panic/emergency braking I use BOTH brakes together. Yes, the front brake does some like 70% of your braking... I feel that 100% of the braking is better than 70%, hence why I tend to use both.

At the onset, 70% of braking is at the front, however, when you reef on the brakes, 100% will be at the front. Keep in mind that the rear tire begins lifting as you brake, and it is possible to actually lift it enough to lose traction (or off the ground) in a panic stop. In that situation, 100% of your braking is in the front and the rear will lock up.

You're going to have to practice at the stopping, and MSF has plenty of drills for that. They also have drills for swerving. All of these skills are last resorts, however. The best is avoidance.

As you ride, stay aware of what's around you and you'll start expanding what USAF Col. John Boyd called the OODA Loop (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act). You'll pick up patterns, and create options to immediately deal with them without having to take much time to think. You'll start seeing brake lights from 5 cars ahead and be on the brakes before the car in front of you is on his, you'll see a car at an intersection keep creeping out hesitantly, you'll see cellphones and signs of distracted driving, etc.

 

[Final Impact]

Riding 6 years. 26,XXX miles and no downs.

Style is to use the bike to our ability so I know what we are capable of. Note: I've been on dirtbikes since 8 years old so not exactly green.

That said for panic braking practice I do the following:
Pick an object like a red mail box, a green trash can, an object with the say the number 17 on it or in it. Basically something you do not know where it is and you will encounter at some random time....
As I ride at speed and see that red mail box I verify no one is behind me and execute hard braking! If its on gravel, a corner, a straight - whatever! Brake and downshift so you are ready to move ASAP!!!

Because it's random, it requires me to find the fake threat and act! Its very different than just deciding to anchor the brakes at will. But I do that also...

Note: if you constantly lock the rear, lower the lever to make it harder to reach.

Bottom line: practice often until you don't have to think! Muscle memory is the goal!

 

[Rxrider]

Whatever lesson you take, its just not enough to prepare yourself for the road. So the only way out there is to ride and ride and expect unforeseen events to come up.

I grew up riding in conditions that are far more hazardous than what you will ever experience here. So it helped prepare myself for quick reaction to road conditions. Another way is to learn is know how you machine reacts under heavy braking and quick lane shift. It allows you to shift your weight around and maintain balance. That takes time and riding is the only way.

Also do not expect fellow road users to follow the rules, for example stop signs. When I started "driving", I thought this is USA, everyone drives well, no fear. But that perception changed when I started "riding". You are just a blip on the road with massive trucks. Make sure you are visible.

 

[alaskanflyboy]

It's the territory with any vehicle really. As a pilot, I've practiced the gamut of emergency scenarios (stall recovery, go-around, in-flight fire, reorienting when lost, unusual attitude recovery, etc.) in real aircraft, FAA-certified sims, and my home sim. I've yet to use any of it in an actual emergency (thank God), and all of it is really last course of action stuff anyway. You practice it so you don't have to think about it if you need it in a pinch, but you do everything in your power to not need to do it in the first place. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

It's worthwhile to practice all these swerve and braking maneuvers, but it's more worthwhile to practice defensive driving techniques on the bike. It's nice to have mastery of the bike to stop as fast as you can without locking the brakes when traffic suddenly stops, and to swerve around the unsecured 2-by-4 that just dropped out of the bed of a pick up just in front of you. It's better see that traffic is stopped 5,6,7,8 cars ahead and be slowing before the guy in front of you pulls his own head out of his butt. It's better to notice the load in the pick up is shifting around and not tied down, and give him appropriate distance, or change lanes. You may still be reefing the brakes or swerving, but you've given yourself time or better position to deal with the issue.

So get out there and practice those maneuvers, but also ride and keep your head on a swivel and your mind in the game. Maneuvers give you tools, but tools are useless if you either overuse or improperly use them.

 

[geolemon01]

When I was younger, I had a hopped up Civic. I started autocross racing it, and what really happened was that I learned how to drive at the limit, and how to react without panicking, even how to dynamically "move" the center of gravity around using throttle and brake.

I had an epiphany: I felt more comfortable driving everywhere, because I was a more competent driver. I knew the limits, and could react fully and competently within them. Even in an accident scenario, I am sure I could at least minimize problems where other people might scream and slam on the brake and maybe compound the problems.

(Disclaimer: your girlfriend won't understand in the slightest if you end up in a close call and avoid an accident, because what you did won't be what her instincts were lol)

I'm pretty new to bikes myself, and one reason I just picked up a FZ6R was to maybe get on a track a little, take some lessons, have some fun (couldn't do that with my KLR-650). I don't need to become a serious racer, but I'd love to learn the same things on a bike.

It's always interesting (if not ironic) that learning to drive aggressively can make a (mature) person a better prepared, safer driver.

Stopping included!

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