I went to go race in a mini motor league for a day . stock XR 100 class with street tires. you can only lean so much before you are just grinding your pegs to nothing. I learned so much about body positioning that day . by the end I was taking turns much faster than when I started and had less lean angle too. get on a track ( or a parking lot with lots of space?) and start playing with different body positions and see how it effects the lean angle. When you are totally hanging off and on the edge of your tires you know you are cooking( and probably shouldn't be going that fast on the street any way! )
How far do you riders lean on stock tires?
- Thread starter SampsonNation
- Start date
SampsonNation
Member
I know this is an old thread, but I'm still having trouble leaning.
Is it norma for me to have to use a lot of upper body strength to continue to press the handle bar in the direction I wish to turn?
I was riding on the highway and a slight corner came up. The speed limit is still 65 MPH. I personally had to slow down to about 50-55 MPH. I could not continue to push the handlebar right without it tiring my arm out. I tried to speed up to at least 65 and continue to go through the slight turn, but I noticed I was actually leaving my lane and was kind of drifting towards the fast lane. I pushed the right bar harder, but it didn't feel right to me. I felt like I was tiring my arm out and the bike was almost ready to loose traction. It also felt like the bike was ready to just tip over.
I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I'll admit I'm not really shift my weight over that much. It feels like I would not be able to shift my weight back if I went too far over to one side.
What I'm wondering is, maybe the bike is just a tad too heavy for me? I'm a skinny guy. I don't know what else could be the problem.
Is it norma for me to have to use a lot of upper body strength to continue to press the handle bar in the direction I wish to turn?
I was riding on the highway and a slight corner came up. The speed limit is still 65 MPH. I personally had to slow down to about 50-55 MPH. I could not continue to push the handlebar right without it tiring my arm out. I tried to speed up to at least 65 and continue to go through the slight turn, but I noticed I was actually leaving my lane and was kind of drifting towards the fast lane. I pushed the right bar harder, but it didn't feel right to me. I felt like I was tiring my arm out and the bike was almost ready to loose traction. It also felt like the bike was ready to just tip over.
I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I'll admit I'm not really shift my weight over that much. It feels like I would not be able to shift my weight back if I went too far over to one side.
What I'm wondering is, maybe the bike is just a tad too heavy for me? I'm a skinny guy. I don't know what else could be the problem.
Bert-Aus
Well-Known Member
Find a track near you, which has professional riders to teach you.
By the sounds of it you are 'muscling' the bike too much, relying on the front wheel to turn.
That is fine at low speeds.
When travelling above 60kmh (40mph?) you should be counter steering & shifting your weight.
If you just want to lean over further, dont do it on the road. The roads are generally not the place to be sliding knee pucks!
Get to the track or
Find a playground rocking horse
The corner speeds are very high to achieve that & any mistake (on the road) will be costly.
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By the sounds of it you are 'muscling' the bike too much, relying on the front wheel to turn.
That is fine at low speeds.
When travelling above 60kmh (40mph?) you should be counter steering & shifting your weight.
If you just want to lean over further, dont do it on the road. The roads are generally not the place to be sliding knee pucks!
Get to the track or
Find a playground rocking horse
The corner speeds are very high to achieve that & any mistake (on the road) will be costly.
Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2
SampsonNation
Member
I agree with what you said 100%. I'll have to figure out how to do this. The closest track is an hour away I believe. I'm not even sure if it's something where I could get lessons or anything.
Doing it wrong Mate. All in your core... no arm or upper body strength involve. Shoulder should stay parallel to the bars and move your butt to the edge of the seat, elbow bend and your head in front of the inside mirror. Bald of your feet on the pegs and push down on the inner pegs, knee out 45 deg. to hold your weight. Hands should be relax and barely holding the grip.
Here's what I suggest. I am not a professional rider/instructor, and these are just opinions and observations of one man, but here they are:
Use your core (as suggested above) AND your legs while leaning into a curve/turn. Here is what I do every time I start out on a ride to remind myself what I am supposed to do, and check that everything is right with my bike: while going about 25mph, I start gently weaving (side to side) in my lane using hips, knees (squeeze the tank with inside knee to help initiate lean) and pressure on the footpegs, all while keeping my shoulders square to the bars and hands firmly relaxed. You should be able to do this without causing any issue with your posture.
For faster turns, such as your highway speed turn/curve, I counter-steer, gently, and look through the turn. (Remember, knee/footpeg pressure, hips - core will help you change direction.)
Or check with your local guru and watch him/her ride. Follow a better rider for a bit, making sure that they know what you are asking them to demonstrate. (Have them video you and then review it with them!) Everyone needs a teacher, even a teacher!
Shiny side should always be up!
Slick
Use your core (as suggested above) AND your legs while leaning into a curve/turn. Here is what I do every time I start out on a ride to remind myself what I am supposed to do, and check that everything is right with my bike: while going about 25mph, I start gently weaving (side to side) in my lane using hips, knees (squeeze the tank with inside knee to help initiate lean) and pressure on the footpegs, all while keeping my shoulders square to the bars and hands firmly relaxed. You should be able to do this without causing any issue with your posture.
For faster turns, such as your highway speed turn/curve, I counter-steer, gently, and look through the turn. (Remember, knee/footpeg pressure, hips - core will help you change direction.)
Or check with your local guru and watch him/her ride. Follow a better rider for a bit, making sure that they know what you are asking them to demonstrate. (Have them video you and then review it with them!) Everyone needs a teacher, even a teacher!
Shiny side should always be up!
Slick
FastFreddy
New Member
Counter steering is a load of bollocks in the way it is taught.
You don't continue to countersteer through the corner. Counter steering is only to change lean angle. If you find yourself pushing the bike down to keep it down, its probably the rest of your body fighting it wanting to be upright.
Personally, I let the handlebars point the way they naturally want to go thru the turns once I'm already in the turn and they aren't countersteering but following the radius in the direction of the turn. YES, big news countersteering worshipers, the bike does not actually countersteer thru the turn, but only when leaning in to the turn initially, then pulling upright out of the turn. The handlebars do NOT countersteer once in the turn.
You don't continue to countersteer through the corner. Counter steering is only to change lean angle. If you find yourself pushing the bike down to keep it down, its probably the rest of your body fighting it wanting to be upright.
Personally, I let the handlebars point the way they naturally want to go thru the turns once I'm already in the turn and they aren't countersteering but following the radius in the direction of the turn. YES, big news countersteering worshipers, the bike does not actually countersteer thru the turn, but only when leaning in to the turn initially, then pulling upright out of the turn. The handlebars do NOT countersteer once in the turn.
FastFreddy
New Member
In other words, there's no counter steering pressure on the bars during the turn.
Bert-Aus
Well-Known Member
Freddy pay attention next you pass through a closing/ tightened corner, or even apply greater acceleration on exit.
To round a corner that reduces radii, countersteering is required to lean the bike further & tighten the exit whilst accelerating or else you will run wide.
Countersteering creates the lean and controls the lean angle
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FastFreddy
New Member
I know what countersteering is, people misinterpret what it is though.
Any time you have to lean further to tighten the angle, you have to countersteer. Then there are no further pressures on the bars once you're at max lean angle, therefore no more countersteering once in the turn.
You can also pull the inside bar to come out of a corner, then its just the inside arm doing all the countersteering in and out of the corner.
Doesn't sound right having to continue the countersteer in the corner unless you are gradually increasing the lean angle like in a reducing radius corner.
Some corners you need to lean in gradually, and at other times you want to lean in quickly at the max turn point then gradually come out.
There's no perfect cornering technique that works on every single corner, practise all the ways and lines.
Any time you have to lean further to tighten the angle, you have to countersteer. Then there are no further pressures on the bars once you're at max lean angle, therefore no more countersteering once in the turn.
You can also pull the inside bar to come out of a corner, then its just the inside arm doing all the countersteering in and out of the corner.
Doesn't sound right having to continue the countersteer in the corner unless you are gradually increasing the lean angle like in a reducing radius corner.
Some corners you need to lean in gradually, and at other times you want to lean in quickly at the max turn point then gradually come out.
There's no perfect cornering technique that works on every single corner, practise all the ways and lines.
FastFreddy
New Member
You countersteer in before the corner, once in the corner you ain't countersteering, at any speed, because the front wheel is tracking the corner once you've already leaned over. That's the point a lot of people miss when it comes to understanding countersteering.
Bert-Aus
Well-Known Member
Freddy me thinks you need re-read posts (others & yours) before posting,
either that or stop drinking before posting -your posts contradict themselves regularly
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either that or stop drinking before posting -your posts contradict themselves regularly
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SampsonNation
Member
I always looked through the turn when I rode. If I remember correctly, in the MSF Course, the riders were taught to move their butt over to the side of the seat when taking the 25 MPH turns in the parking lot. It's funny, I did all this very well.
I've always noticed when I come up to a corner and there's the "suggested" turn speed sign in yellow, I always HAVE to do that speed on a bike or else I would not be able to take the corner without going very wide. If I'm in a car, I can easily continue doing the posted speed limit (for obvious reasons).
I think if someone watched me do my slow corners vs my fast/tighter ones, they would easily see the problem.
I've always noticed when I come up to a corner and there's the "suggested" turn speed sign in yellow, I always HAVE to do that speed on a bike or else I would not be able to take the corner without going very wide. If I'm in a car, I can easily continue doing the posted speed limit (for obvious reasons).
I think if someone watched me do my slow corners vs my fast/tighter ones, they would easily see the problem.
I'm up in Morris County. I would be up for that! Thank you!
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I could meet up with you sometime in Madison / Chatham area, I go there or used to go there often, friends used to live there.
SampsonNation
Member
Yeah, we should setup a time to do that. I'm in the middle of selecting riding boots, so it can't be right now
.No problem man! Just let me know.Yeah, we should setup a time to do that. I'm in the middle of selecting riding boots, so it can't be right now
I think the best advice anyone on this forum should give someone asking these questions and having this much trouble is, go to a racebike school. Not only do they teach you in a classroom as well as on a stationary bike, they have observers who watch you in turns on a track and critique and give guidance as to what you're doing wrong and what to do to correct it. If you're not getting it from the written word, then stop asking on here and get it through practice, observation, and coaching.
The problem with the opinions on the forum is that they are each individual's interpretation of what they've seen, heard, read, and/or been taught. They aren't seeing you ride, they're reading your description of your experience and assuming it's accurate. You are probably not describing it perfectly as you didn't see it, people are probably interpretting it differently than you experienced it, they are giving you their opinions based on misunderstood facts, and then you are interpretting their opinions different than they intended. This could go on forever and you may never get it. You may end up in a ditch somewhere because you followed someone's misguided advice.
If you're having this much trouble, go to a racebike school. I wasn't having any trouble when I went and I thought I knew exactly what I was doing. What I thought I was doing and what the observers saw were quite often very different. When I took their advice and made adjustments over the course of the day, I got better and faster. Now, when I mess up a corner at the track, I can critique myself and determine what I did wrong, so I can work on doing it right going forward. If I didn't go to the racebike school, I would still think I was an expert and would have probably slid my bike off a track.