Accident Scene Management course.

[Boolag]

My Partner and I recently attended an ASMA (Accident Scene Management-Australia/NZ) course in Geelong.

It was well presented and gave us a great new set of skills in the event we encounter someone else's worst nightmare.

In fact, we low sided on a bad corner on Mt Macedon recently and we were able to swiftly get the aftermath under control and mend our wounds without instead panicking or putting other road users in peril..we both believe it's due to the training we received.

Anyhow I'm curious as to how many other rider on this forum have done the ASM course, and whether your skills have been put to use?

These days we always carry a Trauma kit on the bike, and in the car.

Here's a link to ASMA:
Welcome

 

[Fizzer6R]

sounds kinda like disaster preparedness training we did in the military

what does your Trauma kit contain?

 

[Boolag]

sounds kinda like disaster preparedness training we did in the military

what does your Trauma kit contain?

We bought the standard kit at the seminar and bulked it up with some extra goddies.

Trauma shears, gloves, triangle bandage, a couple eye patches, a few rolls of medical gauze, a couple field dressings, a torch, a plastic bag for sucking chest/abdominal wounds, a couple Quikclot dressings, a roll of Quikclot z-guaze(hope we never need to use it) hi vis vest, and the good bits from our old first aidkit. Plus some OxyContin and brufen(it's in there more so I know where I put it

 

[MichaelInVenice]

Don't think there's an exact parallel here in the US.

I've got a bunch of different types of training that cover the same and more.

I'm a Fire Department volunteer, so have a bunch of training with them, mostly based on the basic and advanced CERT curriculums. (CERT : Community Emergency Response Teams (CERT)) These tend to be focused on responding to disaster situations not accident scenes, but much of it is applicable. At the basic level there isn't a whole lot of medical training though and here in SoCal there's an awful lot of emphasis on earthquake response.

Most of my medical training is in wilderness medicine. I keep my Wilderness First Responder (Wilderness Medical Associates) certification active even though I haven't guided in years. It's an 8-9 day course with a 3 day refresher every three years. This summer did an abbreviated full course (5 days) in place of the refresher.

The focus of this is a lot more applicable to us than a lot of "civvie" first aid courses, as the assumption in wilderness medicine is that you have limited equipment and full medical resources are not immediately available. There's also a fair emphasis on trauma injuries, victim extraction, spine stabilization, etc. And you do a lot of "hands on" drills. I think part of the reason I keep doing these classes is that it's about the opportunity to go "hands on" with some of the young ladies in the class The downside is that everybody eventually gets to play victim and payback is a bitch.

Seriously, the instructors are great at theatrical makeup and all sorts of other pretty gruesome special effects. Over the years I've had "blood" spurt in my face (never going to forget about eye protection again!), had a guy "puke" all over me after a head injury, stabilized and transported multiple spine injuries, and yeah, I got to slice the clothes right off a beautiful young lady. (We always wear an inviolable "base layer" when we're being victims, but hers was the skimpiest bikini I've ever seen...)

Have used those skills on multiple motorcycle crashes over the years.

Trauma kit? Depends which. In the car I have a pretty comprehensive one. Enough stuff to last in the field for days, or to deal with a multi-victim car crash. Even carry a c-collar that I seem to have acquired somewhere over the years. Hiking or biking I go much more minimalist. I find most of the commercial kits to contain a whole lot of unnecessary stuff. One of the nice things about the WFR course is that you really do learn to improvise and you end up with a really, really clear idea of what the things are that you need, as opposed to "nice to have."

 

[redwing-2001]

Don't think there's an exact parallel here in the US.

I've got a bunch of different types of training that cover the same and more.

I'm a Fire Department volunteer, so have a bunch of training with them, mostly based on the basic and advanced CERT curriculums. (CERT : Community Emergency Response Teams (CERT)) These tend to be focused on responding to disaster situations not accident scenes, but much of it is applicable. At the basic level there isn't a whole lot of medical training though and here in SoCal there's an awful lot of emphasis on earthquake response.

Most of my medical training is in wilderness medicine. I keep my Wilderness First Responder (Wilderness Medical Associates) certification active even though I haven't guided in years. It's an 8-9 day course with a 3 day refresher every three years. This summer did an abbreviated full course (5 days) in place of the refresher.

The focus of this is a lot more applicable to us than a lot of "civvie" first aid courses, as the assumption in wilderness medicine is that you have limited equipment and full medical resources are not immediately available. There's also a fair emphasis on trauma injuries, victim extraction, spine stabilization, etc. And you do a lot of "hands on" drills. I think part of the reason I keep doing these classes is that it's about the opportunity to go "hands on" with some of the young ladies in the class The downside is that everybody eventually gets to play victim and payback is a bitch.

Seriously, the instructors are great at theatrical makeup and all sorts of other pretty gruesome special effects. Over the years I've had "blood" spurt in my face (never going to forget about eye protection again!), had a guy "puke" all over me after a head injury, stabilized and transported multiple spine injuries, and yeah, I got to slice the clothes right off a beautiful young lady. (We always wear an inviolable "base layer" when we're being victims, but hers was the skimpiest bikini I've ever seen...)

Have used those skills on multiple motorcycle crashes over the years.

Trauma kit? Depends which. In the car I have a pretty comprehensive one. Enough stuff to last in the field for days, or to deal with a multi-victim car crash. Even carry a c-collar that I seem to have acquired somewhere over the years. Hiking or biking I go much more minimalist. I find most of the commercial kits to contain a whole lot of unnecessary stuff. One of the nice things about the WFR course is that you really do learn to improvise and you end up with a really, really clear idea of what the things are that you need, as opposed to "nice to have."

Accident Scene Management Inc (ASMI) classes are held all over the U.S. and are specifically geared to training first responders at motorcycle crashes. Very worthwhile class, they even put together a trauma kit that you can carry on your motorcycle. I have taken this class and the refresher, and unfortunately had to use the kit one time at an auto crash.

 

[MichaelInVenice]

Accident Scene Management Inc (ASMI) classes are held all over the U.S. and are specifically geared to training first responders at motorcycle crashes. Very worthwhile class, they even put together a trauma kit that you can carry on your motorcycle. I have taken this class and the refresher, and unfortunately had to use the kit one time at an auto crash.

Thanks, I checked it, and they don't seem to get to the west coast, at least not this year. That's probably why I've never heard of them.

Looks like there is one instructor in the state, but no classes scheduled.

The material is a small subset of the wilderness certification I have, except for the part about helmet removal which would be great to have. Probably will do the online refresher to at least go through the description of how and when to go about it. (The "when" is easy enough to guess.)

I'm not a big fan of the Quikclot stuff mentioned above. Carry some for unusual situations.

 

[Boolag]

Don't think there's an exact parallel here in the States

Actual, the Accident Scene Management course was founded in the U.S. by Vicki Sanfelipo in 1996.

It's got about 20,000 members in the states, so I'm surprised you haven't heard of it.

 

[BoneJj]

I think I got enough accident scene management training while I was in the military... I was a naval corpsman so yeah... I've got that down pat...

But yes, I think the rest of the people out there should really take a course like this. Personally I think it should be required for all drivers licenses...

 

[Boolag]

The best parts of the course for my partner and I were obviously: the helmet removal, of which the single person method was of the most use for us recently.. And how to apply rescue breathing without killing the patient. In Australia, first aiders are told about the Jaw thrust method..but no one bothers to explain how it's done!! Apart from ASMA.

Also the use of a space blanket to safely move a suspected spinal injury from on road dangers was a real eye opener.

Learning about the physical trauma of a motorcycle crash on the human body was quite sobering.

The irony is, For situations involving motorcycle accidents with spine/neck injuries..The ASMA offers the best training in Australia..
..our instructor was a trained ambulance paramedic with over 20 years experience, and he explained that Ambulance crews in aussie do not recieve the same level of specialist training re:helmet removal and how to use the jaw-thrust technique on motorcyclists, rather than tilting the head back..craack..

 

[MichaelInVenice]

Actual, the Accident Scene Management course was founded in the U.S. by Vicki Sanfelipo in 1996.

It's got about 20,000 members in the states, so I'm surprised you haven't heard of it.

From what I could see on their website, their influence declines the further west you go. They have not had a single course in California in the past year, none scheduled, and only a single lead instructor in the entire state. Closest option for me would be in Phoenix. I checked with a few people who are more knowledgable than me and they hadn't heard of it either, which is too bad because it looks like a good program.

 

[Boolag]

I'm not a big fan of the Quikclot stuff mentioned above.

Imteresting..any specific reasons why? Just out of curiosity.

 

[MichaelInVenice]

Ambulance crews in aussie do not recieve the same level of specialist training re:helmet removal and how to use the jaw-thrust technique on motorcyclists, rather than tilting the head back..craack..

You've got to be kidding? Jaw thrust is part of any basic CPR course here, and definitely part of the rescuer CPR certification that everybody in any ambulance or hospital situation has to do, usually once a year. That an ambulance crew would not be familiar with using this in any situation where there was potential for a spine injury is just plain shocking to me.

Hemet removal is one of those things that was spottily addressed a decade ago, but has gotten a lot of Department of Transportation attention in recent years. Paramedics around here do get it, but training and other procedures do vary from state to state and in some cases from locality to locality.

 

[Boolag]

I wish I was kidding mate, in Aussie it's all about CPR and the concept that if someone is not breathing their heart must have stopped. Totally flawed logic..but motorcyclists here are treated with contempt by many with decision making powers.

We had to do the Certificate 2 first aid course as part of the trauma training..
..And in the first aid book, jaw thrust is mentioned but not explained..don't worry, it shits me too.

 

[Boolag]

I believe the medics and hospital staff are fully trained in jaw thrust etc..but in Aussie the big focus is heart attacks.
There was a senior Aussie paramedic who did the ASMA course despite being totally skeptical.

In hindsight after completing the dude was shocked by the lack of specialist motorcycle accident skills given to paramedics such as himself during ambulance training.

 

[MichaelInVenice]

Imteresting..any specific reasons why? Just out of curiosity.

I carry it in my "comprehensive" kit in the car but in as long as the stuff has been around I've never seen any wound that justified its use. For the smaller lighter weight kits I carry on a bicycle, motorcycle or in a backpack, it just doesn't make the cut. Too many other things that I prioritize well ahead of it. I wouldn't tell anybody "don't take the stuff," just encourage people to prioritize carefully when you have to make choices.

The flip side of this is that the wilderness medicine training I have includes a lot of short and medium-term wound assessment and care, so I have some skills at dealing with this stuff that most people do not. Not quite military-grade training but exceeds that of most urban first responders. (Involves examining and cleaning actual wounds on recently-dead pig limbs.)

Biggest risk to me is that an unpracticed rescuer is going to use insufficient direct pressure in the expectation that merely placing the stuff over a deep and serious wound will do the job. That works well enough for surface bleeds (road rash), but not going to do a thing for the bleeds that you really NEED to stop RIGHT NOW. Secondary issue is that use of it on a wound that is not life-threatening is just going to grind debris and bacteria into the wound and make things much tougher for the people in the ER who have to properly clean and disinfect. In the absence of any reason to do otherwise, I prefer a loose covering to protect from additional contamination and then get the patient to the ER so people there can do their thing.

Like I said, it's not bad stuff and it has its uses, just not a priority item to me when space or weight matter.

 

[MichaelInVenice]

I believe the medics and hospital staff are fully trained in jaw thrust etc..but in Aussie the big focus is heart attacks.
There was a senior Aussie paramedic who did the ASMA course despite being totally skeptical.

In hindsight after completing the dude was shocked by the lack of specialist motorcycle accident skills given to paramedics such as himself during ambulance training.

Wow. Certainly the basic civvie CPR course here is focused on the classic case of the guy who grabs his chest and collapses, with a significant focus on chest compressions. But at the rescuer level, you get everything. Ambulances deal with plenty of emergencies where the issue is breathing, not heart function and it seems crazy to me that they wouldn't be trained at keeping the airway clear in situations where there may be a spine issue.

 

[Boolag]

I carry it in my "comprehensive" kit in the car but in as long as the stuff has been around I've never seen any wound that justified its use. For the smaller lighter weight kits I carry on a bicycle, motorcycle or in a backpack, it just doesn't make the cut. Too many other things that I prioritize well ahead of it. I wouldn't tell anybody "don't take the stuff," just encourage people to prioritize carefully when you have to make choices.

The flip side of this is that the wilderness medicine training I have includes a lot of short and medium-term wound assessment and care, so I have some skills at dealing with this stuff that most people do not. Not quite military-grade training but exceeds that of most urban first responders. (Involves examining and cleaning actual wounds on recently-dead pig limbs.)

Biggest risk to me is that an unpracticed rescuer is going to use insufficient direct pressure in the expectation that merely placing the stuff over a deep and serious wound will do the job. That works well enough for surface bleeds (road rash), but not going to do a thing for the bleeds that you really NEED to stop RIGHT NOW. Secondary issue is that use of it on a wound that is not life-threatening is just going to grind debris and bacteria into the wound and make things much tougher for the people in the ER who have to properly clean and disinfect. In the absence of any reason to do otherwise, I prefer a loose covering to protect from additional contamination and then get the patient to the ER so people there can do their thing.

Like I said, it's not bad stuff and it has its uses, just not a priority item to me when space or weight matter.

Cheers for that, I bothered to watch the combat gauze instructional video several times before getting the stuff..I know it's not really enough training but it's better than not having a clue. We were taught to ignore road rash totally-leave it to the professionals..and concentrate on the urgent stuff, although I do realize, that in some extreme cases road rash can be life threatening.

 

[Boolag]

Wow. Certainly the basic civvie CPR course here is focused on the classic case of the guy who grabs his chest and collapses, with a significant focus on chest compressions. But at the rescuer level, you get everything. Ambulances deal with plenty of emergencies where the issue is breathing, not heart function and it seems crazy to me that they wouldn't be trained at keeping the airway clear in situations where there may be a spine issue.

I should elaborate that I'm basing my statement solely on what my instructors at asma told us, so there is a risk I may be talking a load of crud. I hope that their wrong. But they were quite adamant as to the level of training medics get in regard to motorcycle accidents...quite basic and totally inadequate.

 

[MichaelInVenice]

I should elaborate that I'm basing my statement solely on what my instructors at asma told us, so there is a risk I may be talking a load of crud. I hope that their wrong. But they were quite adamant as to the level of training medics get in regard to motorcycle accidents...quite basic and totally inadequate.

Well, it's only in the past few years here that most of them have helmet-removal training.

But not having training on dealing with a patient who is in respiratory arrest with the heart still going still seems crazy. That's not just a motorcycle problem, it could cover a wide range of trauma and medical situations. I'm guessing they do get training to remove blockages or deal with partial drowning, where once the blockage or fluid is expelled, the breathing often (but not always) takes care of itself.

 

[MichaelInVenice]

We were taught to ignore road rash totally-leave it to the professionals..and concentrate on the urgent stuff, although I do realize, that in some extreme cases road rash can be life threatening.

Yup, if there's an ambulance on the way, only deal with critical matters. In all but one of the motorcycle crashes I've dealt with, all I did on the scene was instruct others to block the area with their cars, then did a quick check for bleeding, stabilized the spine and made the guy as comfortable as possible.