a GENTLE religious DISCUSSION

[Chucker]

You are correct about the coining of the term, my bad. I was referring to the notion/philosophy of agnosticism, which well pre-dates his speech. My bad, you are right to correct me.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but gnosticim IS a Christian word from the Greek gnosis, which described spiritual knowledge. It surely played a part in Hank coming up with the term, but he used it in a much broader sense, superceding religion, but it he was the originator of agnosticism.

Much like the term "acluistic", coined by me. I use it to describe people who don't have a clue. I'd appreciate everyone starting to use this word so I too may become famous well after my death.

 

[madmike]

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but gnosticim IS a Christian word from the Greek gnosis, which described spiritual knowledge. It surely played a part in Hank coming up with the term, but he used it in a much broader sense, superceding religion, but it he was the originator of agnosticism.

Drop the word "surely". He himself explained that he cribbed from the "gnostic" of early catholicism.

"It [agnostic] came into my head as suggestively antithetic to the 'gnostic' of Church history, who professed to know so much about the very things of which I was ignorant...." (Huxley, Thomas Henry. "Agnosticism" The Nineteenth Century. February, 1889, p. 183.)

BTW, if this is a topic that interests you, I would suggest reading the Gnostic Bible by Barnstone and Meyer. They basically compiled all the gnostic gospels that didn't make the cut into the bible we know today, in addition to many other writings from the Gnostic movement.

Amazing to me that most Christians today think their variant is pretty much how it has always been. They know virtually nothing of early christianity, and how the current bible was formed, and how Christianity could look VERY different today if certain factions had gotten their way.

However, Gnosticism does predate Christianity. As you stated, it is a Greek term from gnosis, and was used to describe some pre-christian greco-roman cults.

 

[Sage]

Everyone has their right to believe in what they want w/o persecution and hatred. I really could care less if you are a Christian, Catholic, Hindi, Rastafari, Jew, Pastafarian, Atheist or whatever of the hundreds of religious beliefs and variants that are out there.. It is what you choose to believe in and nobody can stop you from doing that and I respect you for standing with what your beliefs may be.

The only people I really don't care for are those who protest military funerals saying all their nasty things and claiming its a sign from god, they need a wake up call or a kick to the nuts or something.

(hope this doesn't offend anyone, just what I think)

 

[CrazyCawi]

Damn boys, ya'll are gettin deep

 

[Chucker]

Amazing to me that most Christians today think their variant is pretty much how it has always been. They know virtually nothing of early christianity, and how the current bible was formed, and how Christianity could look VERY different today if certain factions had gotten their way.

I would be very interested to know what, if any, religions are close to their origins. It seems everything mutates over time, but I would think that some may be very true to the beginning (of the religion, not the universe. We all know the universe was here long before any religion ).

 

[CrazyCawi]

I like stardust I actually have some in the cadmium yellow. So does that mean my bike predats our world? Now the miles I have on my bike don't seem like that much!

 

[Chucker]

I like stardust I actually have some in the cadmium yellow. So does that mean my bike predats our world? Now the miles I have on my bike don't seem like that much!

Maybe the dealer played you and it's actually a used bike.

 

[madmike]

Damn boys, ya'll are gettin deep

Sorry, one of my biggest hobbies is reading classical greek and roman history. And you essentially have to study early greek and roman philosophy, religion and culture to understand why alot of what happened happened. It's not all the generals and kick-ass land wars with spears and swords

But you learn all sorts of really neat things when you study history. Like why Christianity was such a game changer. Not so much that it was a monotheistic faith in a world where polytheism ruled (Judaism having existed as a monotheistic religion for a long time prior.) Because it was really the first religion to catch on widely that promoted "spiritualism". Almost all major religions prior lacked individual spiritualism. Many small cults promoted individual spiritualism, but were mostly marginalized, or condemned and squashed. Spiritualism, the notion of a oneness with god, was HIGHLY distrusted in antiquity. One of the main reasons why Christians were persecuted early on.

Look today, and almost all major religions are highly spiritualized, while non-spiritual belief systems (ala the norse, roman, and greek pantheons) are discarded. Under those systems, people believed in many many gods who were individually responsible for many things, but there was never a felt personal connection. Sue you could pray to them, but it more akin to asking the boss for time off or a raise...you don't feel a spiritual love for your boss, and those people felt no spiritual love for their gods.

 

[CrazyCawi]

bought private party used from a computer technician ...almost 11k miles on my baby

 

[madmike]

I would be very interested to know what, if any, religions are close to their origins.

Islam. Plain and simple. Because very shortly after the prophet Muhammed's death, the first caliph Abu Bakr scoured the land for anyone and everyone who had heard Muhammed speak directly. Anything attributed to him had to be verified by at least one other source, word for word. This was actually done very methodically, and professionally. Hence, the Quran is believed to be (and likely is) the actual word for word dictation of the message Muhammed was supposedly given by the angel Gabriel.

Hence, Islam today is extremely close to its origin. Naturally, interpretation of those words are argued over by different imams, but the fact that the Quran IS the exact "word of god" as given to their prophet, that is why we see the problems out modern society has with Sharia law and such. There's no wiggle room when you have the "verbatim word of god" staring you in the face.

 

[dndfindley]

Comments about the corruption of churchs, the greed of Pastors, Popes and Kings, and the millions of lives lost over religion, are all correct. The problem over looked by the non-believers is that GOD did not do this!!
GOD gave us the right to make decisions, but we have to live with those decisions and the consequences thereof. GOD only insists that we follow HIS ways and all others paths are our own doing! The greed of mankind has perverted the Christian belief to an almost unrecognizable form, and I do not blame people for believing that religion causes more grief than good.
However, believing is like choosing a motorcycle. You have to research, learn and understand what you are buying before you lay down your money. Belief is no different. Without the research, the explanations and the ability to discern between right or wrong, between educated or ancient, you will make a poor purchace (maybe a Hardley Driveable for instance), and you will have to live with that choice for sometime to come.
I do not have all the answers, but my experience with GOD has come thru a desire to understand rather that ridicule. I have many, many questions and I do not agree with many parts of GOD's Plan, but I do not claim to be the smartest cookie in the jar. I will continue to learn, discern and educate myself without the arrogance of mankind's invincibility complex.
Remember that GOD's words were written to ancient, under-developed and simple people and to take the Bible's words as literal is a first and common mistake. If you pick up a text of advanced mathematics, the majority will never understand it without assistance.
Finally, to all the science is right about everything types, there are two things I have noted....
1) Most advanced scientific theories are just that ...theories
2) Too many advanced scientific practices..ie: carbon dating... are proving to be bunk. A recent body found in the Alps was 'dated' to be a cazillion years old was actually a lost person from a few years ago. This is one of many recent discoveries of the errors our decisions are creating.
My Pastor insists that visitors do not add to the collections as they are welcome guests. He does not live in a fancy house or own a fancy car. Our church is large, active and trying to follow GOD's teachings without destroying anything in our path. We continue to learn without ridicule.

Cheers!

Right on. David

 

[dndfindley]

Just a couple of thoughts.

When someone tries to pigeonhole a Christian by saying they aren't following their own religion by saying they judge or aren't following the teachings of Christ I know they have already lost the argument. Christians are people and will always fail to be Christlike. That was the lesson and non-Christians always fail to "get" this concept.
The "Religion of Peace" was created to defeat Christianity so they always say Christians aren't following their own religion. Christians are supposed to accept beheadings with a dull knife and being slowly burned to death or chopped up with a machete and not bitch about it.
Athiests always say the people of all religions believe in fantasy.

Having faith is not a bad thing. Treating other people with respect and helping them is good also but what caused this? Religion did, not Atheism.
The USA was founded by very religious Christians who fled to the New World to escape religious persecution. Now that Atheists and non-Christians have taken over the limelight and make the USA look like a non-Christian country the Christian way of peace and helping one another is vanishing too. Flash mobs robbing and beating people..is that a Christian thing? So the Christians ran to the New World to escape persecution and now the Homosexuals, Atheists and Muslims are again in full attack mode and persecuting them once again here in the USA. This was the last stand...

Obama stated this in Egypt, and I quote. "The United States is NOT a Christian Nation". I wonder where he got that idea when over 85% of the people in the USA affiliate with some Christian faith how can that be true? Is the USA a homosexual nation because 3% of us are gay? Are we an Islamic nation because 3% of us are Muslim? Are we a Atheist nation because 4% of us claim to be one?
It appears that the minorities are way over represented and appear to speak for a much larger segment of society than they actually represent. In Hollywood the percentage of gay spokespeople is at 30%...
We have certain churches preaching white genocide (Obama's old church)
We have certain churches burning the Koran.
We have Christian churches all over the world being burned down by Muslims and there is not a single church in Saudi Arabia nor a non-Muslim allowed in Mecca.
We have churches across all denominations changing from Christian to Chrislam...WTF.....

This world is turning topsy-turvy with the worst of human nature being promoted as the way for all to emulate. Join Islam and you get to marry a 9 year old and can legally rape infants, marry 1st cousins and have sex with animals. Be a Christian and remain a virgin until you marry a frigid girl that only does the Missionary position. LOL...Now that is fantasy...Sure there are some fringe parts of all religion that are a bit freaky but not the mainstream.
It seems the exception to the rule is becoming more the norm and that isn't good.
Atheists will argue that religious people believe in fantasy but have never proved it. Religious people claim you have to have faith but Atheists refuse to believe it so they never get the point.

Religion and Politics are 2 subjects that have caused more arguments than any other in history.

On a lighter note, I hear that Atheists are taking up the call to take care of the Christian's pets after the rapture...

Good post. David

 

[dndfindley]

I agree about the "keep religion to yourself" but almost nobody does that. I'm an atheist. Small "a" atheist. I don't make Atheism my religion, by going on anti-christian crusades. I don't care if the 10 commandments is up in a public place, I like nativity scenes on Christmas, and I celebrate Christmas. I just don't believe in god. So others' belief in god has no impact on me. If they don't try and cram religion down my throat, I won't try to cram my atheism down theirs.

Good attitude. David

 

[dndfindley]

I promise im not arguing? I had only awnsered davids request of wherre my stance is with religion. I have no issues with anyone believing what they want! I had a jehovas witness come to my house 2 years ago....4 hours later they left and we shook hands and said thanks for one anothers time. Im always open to others beliefs and ALWAYS willing to listen, just as I hope your willing to listen to me and m beliefs. If this sis going to split our community which I hope we are all better than that to let it happen, we can close this thread.

But here is the point you and some of the others are missing: I have no problem with your views on religion or Christianity. You can believe what you wish. I also have no problem with people who do not want to discuss religion in this forum although I do not think it is possible to completely eliminate it from discussion, only keep it toned down and to a minimum. My problem is with you taking your anti Christian view and rubbing it in each and every time you make a post. Want to keep religion out? Remove your little crucifix/vampire saying. That's my only beef. By you putting that out there each and every post you are also saying that it is okay for me to post pro-Christian articles and continually remind you of where I stand. Want this to end now? Then tit for tat. Your crucifix saying is RELIGIOUS in nature - take it down. No, that is not a demand. However if you want this to end only you can do it. The choice is yours. David

 

[dndfindley]

Well if u did research u would find alot of truth in what Jesus talked about ....it's unfolding here today in modern society...it's been proven Jesus was real. And it's hard to say that the worlds largest religion is just a fake...that we were all fooled ...not buying it

Just because u can't see the wind when it touches your face....doesn't mean it's not there. That's my opinion but to each there own. I know my soul is saved.
Ohhhh and btw my bikes name is "Angel"

There may be hope for you after all David

 

[dndfindley]

Why doesn't the bible talk about dinosaurs?

It does. Ever hear the word leviathan (ms?)? Read the book of Job or at least skim thru it. For me it is one of the most depressing books of the Bible but it ends well. In any case God personally speaks of them there. David

 

[dndfindley]

"The Bar Pull up a stool. This is an open forum where you can discuss whatever you wish."

Sorry to see a member go, but this is the bar and it has actually been a civil discussion on all sides.... had it got nasty (members at each other), it would have been deleted... as it stands, it seems most who have posted have simply stated their opinions.

Excellent point. I resent anyone attempting to censor other members as to what can and cannot be discussed. As you stated if it gets nasty then it needs to be stopped but that is not the case here. If a baby wants to take his ball and go home, let him. The group is better off for it. David

 

[dndfindley]

I would be very interested to know what, if any, religions are close to their origins. It seems everything mutates over time, but I would think that some may be very true to the beginning (of the religion, not the universe. We all know the universe was here long before any religion ).

Religion is NOT God's invention - it is man's. Keep that in mind and don't blame God when a priest molests a child or the pastor runs off with the organ player. God has pretty much made His thoughts (mostly) clear in His holy word, the Bible. Read it if you're curious...or not. Your choice. I won't throw it in your face. We will all face God someday like it or not. I'm ready for that meeting. David

 

[dndfindley]

Islam. Plain and simple. Because very shortly after the prophet Muhammed's death, the first caliph Abu Bakr scoured the land for anyone and everyone who had heard Muhammed speak directly. Anything attributed to him had to be verified by at least one other source, word for word. This was actually done very methodically, and professionally. Hence, the Quran is believed to be (and likely is) the actual word for word dictation of the message Muhammed was supposedly given by the angel Gabriel.

Hence, Islam today is extremely close to its origin. Naturally, interpretation of those words are argued over by different imams, but the fact that the Quran IS the exact "word of god" as given to their prophet, that is why we see the problems out modern society has with Sharia law and such. There's no wiggle room when you have the "verbatim word of god" staring you in the face.

Oh, I believe it most probably is the verbatim word given to Muhammed, just that it didn't come from God. David

 

[Detrich]

all things in life have hierarchies... families, schools, organized religions, businesses, gov'ts etc. etc.

and, organized religion is just another business created to cultivate a demand for an intangible product (spirituality etc.) and then sell that product to more & more ppl. the only difference is that some actually do some good in the world. but, most do a lot of evil. am not condemning it altogether, but am just saying that it's important to see it for what it is.