How far do you riders lean on stock tires?
- Thread starter SampsonNation
- Start date
Not trying to continue the argument here, purely to settle it.
Freddy
Bert
Chucker
You're all right.
Happy?
Freddy. The methods used to teach counter steering, aren't actually teaching anybody to countersteer.
You learn to counter steer the moment your parents took the training wheels off your bicycle. (This is fact, otherwise every time you tried to make a turn you'd fall off.)
Now, to settle what the argument became about.
Under entry to a corner, you counter steer. This is to pitch the weight of the motorcycle into the direction you want to lean. We all know this. We all do this.
Once you are in a turn under a constant radius. Your front wheel is turned in the direction of travel. This always happens.
But what happens when the radius changes? Now your going to turn tighter into this corner. All that's going to happen is you are going to counter steer again (Freddy, keep reading before jumping at me).
Counter steering whilst leant over, is by nature turning the front wheel back to the straight position. Lowering the bike to lean more.
You can describe this in 2 ways. You can say you are reducing the steering angle (reduced normal steering). Or counter steering. It is counter steering because by nature your point the wheel away from the corner, and thus counter to the direction you want to go.
Increasing radius you turn the wheel towards the corner (or apply throttle and let the centrifugal forces in the wheel pick up the bike (gyroscopic stability).
So in reality 99.999% of turning above the dynamic steering threshold (the point of steering change normally 20mph / 32kph depending on the steering geometry) can, and is described as counter steering.
So you're all right.
Reality is here your perception in descriptive terms Freddy are off.
This happens to most motorcyclists once we try to understand what the bike is doing. We all perceive these changes differently, until we fully understand the principles of what is actually happening.
Now, no more bickering. Swearing at each other etc. This is a place of discussion. A place of learning, including me.
If only one thing is guaranteed. The moment you tell yourself you know everything about motorcycles, you've just set in motion the beginning of a crash.
Freddy
Bert
Chucker
You're all right.
Happy?
Freddy. The methods used to teach counter steering, aren't actually teaching anybody to countersteer.
You learn to counter steer the moment your parents took the training wheels off your bicycle. (This is fact, otherwise every time you tried to make a turn you'd fall off.)
Now, to settle what the argument became about.
Under entry to a corner, you counter steer. This is to pitch the weight of the motorcycle into the direction you want to lean. We all know this. We all do this.
Once you are in a turn under a constant radius. Your front wheel is turned in the direction of travel. This always happens.
But what happens when the radius changes? Now your going to turn tighter into this corner. All that's going to happen is you are going to counter steer again (Freddy, keep reading before jumping at me).
Counter steering whilst leant over, is by nature turning the front wheel back to the straight position. Lowering the bike to lean more.
You can describe this in 2 ways. You can say you are reducing the steering angle (reduced normal steering). Or counter steering. It is counter steering because by nature your point the wheel away from the corner, and thus counter to the direction you want to go.
Increasing radius you turn the wheel towards the corner (or apply throttle and let the centrifugal forces in the wheel pick up the bike (gyroscopic stability).
So in reality 99.999% of turning above the dynamic steering threshold (the point of steering change normally 20mph / 32kph depending on the steering geometry) can, and is described as counter steering.
So you're all right.
Reality is here your perception in descriptive terms Freddy are off.
This happens to most motorcyclists once we try to understand what the bike is doing. We all perceive these changes differently, until we fully understand the principles of what is actually happening.
Now, no more bickering. Swearing at each other etc. This is a place of discussion. A place of learning, including me.
If only one thing is guaranteed. The moment you tell yourself you know everything about motorcycles, you've just set in motion the beginning of a crash.
You can go further than the chicken strips... lol .
m3tric
New Member
I feel like I lean 40 deg but I'm probably at about the 15
FastFreddy
New Member
ramble
Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.
The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"
"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"
Yes, countersteering is real and it works. However it remains misunderstood by most who only seem to remember one aspect of it, the word itself.
Any attempt to highlight other points of cornering will be poo poo'd by doubting Thomas's. It's like, "the water is wet", "Yes, but the sky is blue, the sky is blue, who cares about the wet water, the sky is still blue".
Knowledge dispels fear.
Knowing how countersteering truly works, not what people think it is and what they continually parrot, may help.
A dramatic statement at the start of a discourse is a speech technique used to attract attention. Some are better than others
ie : good examples.
"I have a dream"
"One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind"
bad examples :
"countersteering is bollocks"
"You uncoordinated ****s haven't got a clue"
I taught myself countersteering before I even had heard that word.
I was beating intensive course students on my very first track session.
I was beating liter bikes who claimed it was because of my additional power that allowed me to rocket out of corners, in fact I was half the power and 10 kg more weight. I do know physics to an advanced level. I'm basically an ok rider. If I get half as good as I want to be, then I'll still be happy to be half as good as what I was aiming for.
I consulted Yoda-san and he said "give me those keys, look and learn, this is how you corner at the Kung Fu corner school"
Afterwards I enquired "Master, how is it that you can lean so far over"
He replied "Did you hear the peg grinding near your feet ? How is it that you cannot ?"
"Once you are in a turn under a constant radius. Your front wheel is turned in the direction of travel. This always happens."
That's all I really wanted to say, people misunderstand this point.
Read Twist of the Wrist II, it does mention actually that mid-turn there should be no pressure on the bars.
I think I was originally replying to someone that said they were holding the bar down during the corner.
Then I was referring to differing cornering styles. Not flip flopping BERT !
By pointing out differing cornering styles, this will help people learn.
There's basically a lot of different cornering styles. In terms of leaning there are 2 main styles :
1. The Keith Code "Get straight to the maximum lean angle" style.
2. The gradually lean in and only hold the maximum lean for a brief period style. (works well on the highway).
Then there's the 3 racing lines :
- qualifying line with wide entry.
- defensive line, tight on entry.
- racing line, in the middle to stay fast and cover the inside.
The road line :
- wide entry late apex and stays tight on exit. (safest way)
There's different braking techniques, I'm pesonally an early braker and early on the gas. THen there's the late braking, get all the weight on the front wheel all while trying to turn style, it does work for some corners really well.
Then you can drag the rear brake, and sometimes the front brake to adjust the pitching forces mid turn too.
There are many paths to Motorbiking Zen to get you into the zone of motorbiking nirvana.
I knew not to reply to this thread.
I knew there'd be scorn if I attempted to dare mention one thing additional to the "countersteer" mantra.
I need to change my username, the real Fast Freddy doesn't need this kind of heat, Fred is not my real name in fact.
"Counter steering is only to change lean angle"
That's what I said, what's your problem Bert and Chucker, apart from being super dense.
Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.
The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"
"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"
Yes, countersteering is real and it works. However it remains misunderstood by most who only seem to remember one aspect of it, the word itself.
Any attempt to highlight other points of cornering will be poo poo'd by doubting Thomas's. It's like, "the water is wet", "Yes, but the sky is blue, the sky is blue, who cares about the wet water, the sky is still blue".
Knowledge dispels fear.
Knowing how countersteering truly works, not what people think it is and what they continually parrot, may help.
A dramatic statement at the start of a discourse is a speech technique used to attract attention. Some are better than others
ie : good examples.
"I have a dream"
"One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind"
bad examples :
"countersteering is bollocks"
"You uncoordinated ****s haven't got a clue"
I taught myself countersteering before I even had heard that word.
I was beating intensive course students on my very first track session.
I was beating liter bikes who claimed it was because of my additional power that allowed me to rocket out of corners, in fact I was half the power and 10 kg more weight. I do know physics to an advanced level. I'm basically an ok rider. If I get half as good as I want to be, then I'll still be happy to be half as good as what I was aiming for.
I consulted Yoda-san and he said "give me those keys, look and learn, this is how you corner at the Kung Fu corner school"
Afterwards I enquired "Master, how is it that you can lean so far over"
He replied "Did you hear the peg grinding near your feet ? How is it that you cannot ?"
"Once you are in a turn under a constant radius. Your front wheel is turned in the direction of travel. This always happens."
That's all I really wanted to say, people misunderstand this point.
Read Twist of the Wrist II, it does mention actually that mid-turn there should be no pressure on the bars.
I think I was originally replying to someone that said they were holding the bar down during the corner.
Then I was referring to differing cornering styles. Not flip flopping BERT !
By pointing out differing cornering styles, this will help people learn.
There's basically a lot of different cornering styles. In terms of leaning there are 2 main styles :
1. The Keith Code "Get straight to the maximum lean angle" style.
2. The gradually lean in and only hold the maximum lean for a brief period style. (works well on the highway).
Then there's the 3 racing lines :
- qualifying line with wide entry.
- defensive line, tight on entry.
- racing line, in the middle to stay fast and cover the inside.
The road line :
- wide entry late apex and stays tight on exit. (safest way)
There's different braking techniques, I'm pesonally an early braker and early on the gas. THen there's the late braking, get all the weight on the front wheel all while trying to turn style, it does work for some corners really well.
Then you can drag the rear brake, and sometimes the front brake to adjust the pitching forces mid turn too.
There are many paths to Motorbiking Zen to get you into the zone of motorbiking nirvana.
I knew not to reply to this thread.
I knew there'd be scorn if I attempted to dare mention one thing additional to the "countersteer" mantra.
I need to change my username, the real Fast Freddy doesn't need this kind of heat, Fred is not my real name in fact.
Yes, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about steady state you unco deadshit.
"Counter steering is only to change lean angle"
That's what I said, what's your problem Bert and Chucker, apart from being super dense.
Last edited by a moderator:
The app? i couldnt read any more of freddys meanderings so i just skipped down to your post
Downloading now, thank you!
try "my tracks", will track your ride tell you how far, how fast, shows it on a map, average speed, stop time, elevation etc.
SampsonNation
Member
Hey all! I'm definitely going to take the advice of having someone ride with me before I do anything else. I'll also schedule a track day eventually. I really want to try it! It's too bad it is now fall and I'm just getting more into riding .
.
Bert-Aus
Well-Known Member
One thing to note with My Tracks,
It would be unadvised to upload any datasets or mapping created for show & tell.
As it plots how fast you are travelling, with times & dates etc.
Great App, I used it a couple times on my moto & more so for cycling, running...just be cautious how you use the recorded info.
Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2
^^ WHSOne thing to note with My Tracks,
It would be unadvised to upload any datasets or mapping created for show & tell.
As it plots how fast you are travelling, with times & dates etc.
Great App, I used it a couple times on my moto & more so for cycling, running...just be cautious how you use the recorded info.
Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2
Who knows what gubbermint is watching what these days...
My local police force happen to check the vloggers and what they record/share on YouTube...
So exactly as Bert, be careful what you record/share.
OMG, this made me laugh!!! How does someone go for days and then all of a sudden snap on an old subject? Pill bottle must've been empty.
FastFreddy, I have to apologize. I was just just havin' some fun razzin' you. I had no idea it would have just a profound effect on your ability to hold it together.
i dont publish anything but wouldn't be afraid to. I dont think they can give me a ticket after the fact for going 100One thing to note with My Tracks,
It would be unadvised to upload any datasets or mapping created for show & tell.
As it plots how fast you are travelling, with times & dates etc.
Great App, I used it a couple times on my moto & more so for cycling, running...just be cautious how you use the recorded info.
Sent from my LT18i using Tapatalk 2
Thanks for the Tip Nismos, this has pretty much the same info as my tracks with the addition of the lean angle which mine said was 40.5 going up angeles crest highway.
dIGITAL dISCIPLE
New Member
It says it not available in my country.. I live in Arkansas.. I make fun of this place as much as the next, but damn.. lol.
Anyone else that might still use or have this know where I can grab it? I can't find a USA version for the android. Even their website link doesn't work.
FastFreddy
New Member
You can either countersteer throughout the corner OR you can countersteer whenever you need to change lean angle and otherwise giving the bike its head without pressure on the bars when not needing to change lean angle further. Go out, ride and test for yourselves and turn off that stupid idiot box.