It's hard to fathom how good those guys are...
motoDNA: Getting a Grip on the Mechanics of Trail Braking
motoDNA: Getting a Grip on the Mechanics of Trail Braking
MotGP Trail Braking
- Thread starter ksanbon
- Start date
FastFreddy
New Member
I was wondering about trail braking, excellent article.
Some corners you definitely need to do this.
You have to practice how the brakes affect in all phases of the corner, this article explains a lot.
I'm generally early braking and putting the throttle on to balance as I lean.
Practice very gently brushing the brakes (while going straight to feel what a light touch is, then to use during corners), a light touch over a distance is safe with the rear brake, a light touch on the front brake can settle things to when needed.
Rossi is well known to trail brake most hard corners. Lorenzo is a well known early braker. The both know how to get off the brakes and keep the optimum speed up into the corner either way.
Some corners you definitely need to do this.
You have to practice how the brakes affect in all phases of the corner, this article explains a lot.
I'm generally early braking and putting the throttle on to balance as I lean.
Practice very gently brushing the brakes (while going straight to feel what a light touch is, then to use during corners), a light touch over a distance is safe with the rear brake, a light touch on the front brake can settle things to when needed.
Rossi is well known to trail brake most hard corners. Lorenzo is a well known early braker. The both know how to get off the brakes and keep the optimum speed up into the corner either way.
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I have had to foot brake a few times mid corner when I have gotten in a little "hot" on a couple of decreasing radious turns... its a little unnerving the first couple of times, but you start to get the hang of it after a while....
Best to practice this on roads you know, or even better a track.
Bert-Aus
Well-Known Member
If you can get your head around how this works,
practicing on the track this method will vastly improve your lap times
...feels magic when you get it good (not to say that I am an expert at all)
to reduce the back end stepping out you also need to rev match your down shift whilst breaking too!
(this is my next area of practice as I step out too often on the dip in)
practicing on the track this method will vastly improve your lap times
...feels magic when you get it good (not to say that I am an expert at all)
to reduce the back end stepping out you also need to rev match your down shift whilst breaking too!
(this is my next area of practice as I step out too often on the dip in)
Trail braking is a perfect example of a skill used for speed on the track that can directly be applied to save your *** on the street. (forgive me if im spouting what the article already said... Im at work and cant really read all that.) Just like rev matching. If youre heading into a turn on the street too hot, the last thing you want is to lock up the rear from down shifting too hard. Same with trail braking. Knowing how to slowly release the brakes to scrub speed while rolling on the throttle can really save your butt at times. Ive only used trail braking on the steet when i HAD to. Im glad i learned how to do it on the track. I honestly wouldnt suggest using it regularly on the street. No need. But practicing it occasionaly (on the track if you can) so you have it in your bag of tricks is a good idea. The skill is actually similar what you need for rev matching. Knowing how to isolate the pressure your fingers are placing on the brake lever from the rotation of your wrist on the throttle.
Now rev matching... I use that prety much at all times. Especially when im "having fun"
in the canyons.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
Now rev matching... I use that prety much at all times. Especially when im "having fun"
in the canyons. Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
When u guys trail brake are you solely using front brake or rear though?
In MotoGP it looks as though they use the reAr, because you see the rear side of the bike swaying right before they drop into a corner.
For canyon riding, I've heard different things tho. Some friends I know use the rear to trail brake. Some completely ignore the rear and only use the front.
What's the correct way to do it and why?
In MotoGP it looks as though they use the reAr, because you see the rear side of the bike swaying right before they drop into a corner.
For canyon riding, I've heard different things tho. Some friends I know use the rear to trail brake. Some completely ignore the rear and only use the front.
What's the correct way to do it and why?
Bert-Aus
Well-Known Member
My method on track goes something like (picturing one corner in particular)
sight entry (2) marker
front brake on
down shift
rear brake on
down shift
sight corner (3) marker
heavy front brake
shift weight
rear brake off
lean out
sight apex marker
dip bike
still riding front brake
power
leaning still and more so
power
release front brake
sight exit marker
power
leaning more
power-aaarrrgh
change up
power-er-er-arrggh
power-er-arrrgh
upright bike as tuck-in
pour on more power +some more
change up and pour on everything last drop of power
street version of this requires alot less throttle and lean
dont ask for what the xbox controls are, because I wouldn't know I only ride real bikes:catfight:
sight entry (2) marker
front brake on
down shift
rear brake on
down shift
sight corner (3) marker
heavy front brake
shift weight
rear brake off
lean out
sight apex marker
dip bike
still riding front brake
power
leaning still and more so
power
release front brake
sight exit marker
power
leaning more
power-aaarrrgh
change up
power-er-er-arrggh
power-er-arrrgh
upright bike as tuck-in
pour on more power +some more
change up and pour on everything last drop of power
street version of this requires alot less throttle and lean
dont ask for what the xbox controls are, because I wouldn't know I only ride real bikes:catfight:
This is a really good step by step. One thing I'd add in there is that while riding the brake tipping over, you want to be slightly lessening the pressure on that brake while you're slowly adding throttle at the same time.
Personally, I hate the back brake. I know there's a lot of different opinions on rear brake use and mostly it comes down to personal preference. Look at the difference between the rear brake on Nicky Hayden's bike vs. his team mate (pretty much no matter who he's riding with) he uses a huge rear break rotor because he uses it a lot more than the other guys. More to keep from over cooking it. Not that he needs more power from the rear brake. But because it's used so much more, a standard rotor would get too hot. Most of them use it for wheelie control coming out of corners and some during trail braking. Nicky uses his to set the rear backed in slightly, dirt tracker style. Having grown up on dirt tracks, he's got a very different style compared to a lot of the Euro riders who grew up riding little 2 stroke GP style bikes.
Look at the rear brake on Hayden's Honda here:
Compared to Pedrosa's from the same year.
I never touch the rear break. I trail break using only the front to set my desired corner entry speed. great tool once you get used to it because it allows you to attack a corner in different scenarios, and still keep you online.
I think you see the back of a lot of bikes swaying because there is little to no weight on the rear, and it's just wanting to come around. IMO, the only way you would touch the rear is if you are also on the throttle as it would be extremely easy to lock it up with low road resistance. At the trackdays around here, they preach not to touch the rear, unless you find yourself in the grass, then you only use the rear.
Another misunderstood element of motorcycle riding.
Racers use trail braking because they have to. They want to slow down later and harder than the guy behind them, in order that they stay in front of them until the end of the race.
Braking into corners also helps the bike turn as it changes the steering geometry in a way that makes the bike turn in better. At least until you overcome the amount of traction you have. Then you start to push the front tire ~ all but the most skilled riders normally call this part 'crashing' as they tuck the front end. An extremely skilled rider can often come very close to crashing without going past the limit.
Anyway, once you have applied the brakes going into the turn you need to slowly release them or your suspension will not appreciate having the braking force suddenly taken away, which can cause the bike to do things you don't want it to at high speeds. You also have to let go of some brake or you will overcome the amount of traction you have by turning while braking. So you 'trail brake' to stabilize the suspension while smoothly reducing your braking force so you have more traction for cornering.
As a motorcycle racer comes out of the corner, they may continue to 'trail' the brakes a bit to control the rebound of the front and rear suspension as well as control wheelspin.
MotoGP electronic packages and seamless transmissions have changed many of these things for their riders, but owners of street bikes still have to make do with what they have.
As someone else mentioned, aggressive trail braking is something you should never need away from a racetrack environment but it is still helpful to use a little bit of it if you intend to ride faster than The Pace so you have proper control and do not cause yourself to crash unnecessarily.
Racers use trail braking because they have to. They want to slow down later and harder than the guy behind them, in order that they stay in front of them until the end of the race.
Braking into corners also helps the bike turn as it changes the steering geometry in a way that makes the bike turn in better. At least until you overcome the amount of traction you have. Then you start to push the front tire ~ all but the most skilled riders normally call this part 'crashing' as they tuck the front end. An extremely skilled rider can often come very close to crashing without going past the limit.
Anyway, once you have applied the brakes going into the turn you need to slowly release them or your suspension will not appreciate having the braking force suddenly taken away, which can cause the bike to do things you don't want it to at high speeds. You also have to let go of some brake or you will overcome the amount of traction you have by turning while braking. So you 'trail brake' to stabilize the suspension while smoothly reducing your braking force so you have more traction for cornering.
As a motorcycle racer comes out of the corner, they may continue to 'trail' the brakes a bit to control the rebound of the front and rear suspension as well as control wheelspin.
MotoGP electronic packages and seamless transmissions have changed many of these things for their riders, but owners of street bikes still have to make do with what they have.
As someone else mentioned, aggressive trail braking is something you should never need away from a racetrack environment but it is still helpful to use a little bit of it if you intend to ride faster than The Pace so you have proper control and do not cause yourself to crash unnecessarily.